Christmas - Would Jesus Celebrate it?

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

2timothy316
Under Probation
Posts: 4161
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
Has thanked: 175 times
Been thanked: 457 times

Christmas - Would Jesus Celebrate it?

Post #1

Post by 2timothy316 »

It cannot be denied that there are some good behaviors that Christmas is supposed and many times does stir in people. Loving, giving and helping the less fortunate.

While there is nothing against these things in the Bible, in fact these things are highly encouraged. Still, there are many things in Christmas that it is widely known are not scriptural, but quite pagan.

For debate, if Christmas was around during Jesus' day would he have taken part in it?

2timothy316
Under Probation
Posts: 4161
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
Has thanked: 175 times
Been thanked: 457 times

Post #31

Post by 2timothy316 »

marco wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:

All evidence says that December 25th was so that. "it became easier to convince Rome’s pagan subjects to accept Christianity as the empire’s official religion."

The church changing their beliefs to fit pagan worship, rather than the other way around. If you see that as good well then just...wow.

"You must not follow after other gods, any gods of the peoples who are all around you, for Jehovah your God who is in your midst is a God who requires exclusive devotion. Otherwise, the anger of Jehovah your God will blaze against you and he will annihilate you from the face of the earth." - Deuteronomy 6:14, 15

I agree that December 25, and the preceding weeks of "advent" replaced the Roman Saturnalia which was very popular. What was not done was a transfer of pagan deities.
Neither was there a transfer deity in Exodus chapter 32. They called it a "Festival to Jehovah" yet they formed a calf statue widely used in Egypt to be used in this 'festival'. When they did that, Jehovah was ready to wipe all of them out but Moses pleaded for them before God not to destroy them. It seems that the pagan deity doesn't have to be passed along with the object in question to gain God's disapproval. Apparently Jehovah was quite angry something from another form of worship was adopted to the worship of Him. Later it was summed up concerning physical things in the worship God, "for we are walking by faith, not by sight." (2 Cor 5:7) All of these trees, plants, lights, crosses etc are not needed and apparently not wanted in worship to God.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Post #32

Post by JehovahsWitness »

marco wrote:
You ask whether Jesus would have approved. Yes, since he was very much in favour of followers "commemorating him."
Yes but Jesus told his disciples exactly how he wanted that annual commemoration to be done. We have the needed day/month and even "time" provided in scripture. Jesus never indicated the "replacement theology" of Christianizing pagan holidays to chase thoughts of false gods from the minds of belivers on that day and there is no basis for this in scripture. Further, it seems the early Christians did not promote same day replacement festivities, this was a policy that came much later.

Paul discusses in Corinthians detail the nature of the commemoration of Jesus and if they indeed also celebrated his birthday, in all likelihood he would have referenced this second holy commemorative occasion, he did not. Indeed, glarjng in its absence is any mention of such a thing. Those that presume both Jesus, the Apostles and the first century church did instigate a late december "birthday" memorial for Jesus are really doing so without any scriotural or historical basis.


JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Menotu
Sage
Posts: 530
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:34 pm
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: Christmas - Would Jesus Celebrate it?

Post #33

Post by Menotu »

[Replying to post 7 by 2timothy316]

Why do you think is there no date of Jesus' birthday mentioned in the Bible?

I don't think it would matter if there was. The church would have made up their own mind and people would have followed.
Also, could Christmas be considered a form of worship?
Maybe - guess it depends on how you define 'worship'.

Sojournerofthearth
Apprentice
Posts: 198
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 11:24 pm
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Post #34

Post by Sojournerofthearth »

[Replying to post 13 by brianbbs67]
Question to all here, what non Mosaic celebration did he and the rest of Judah participate in that the bible documents?
The only one I can think of was the Feast of Dedication, which was more of a national Jewish holiday.

Soj

2timothy316
Under Probation
Posts: 4161
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
Has thanked: 175 times
Been thanked: 457 times

Re: Christmas - Would Jesus Celebrate it?

Post #35

Post by 2timothy316 »

Menotu wrote: [Replying to post 7 by 2timothy316]

Why do you think is there no date of Jesus' birthday mentioned in the Bible?

I don't think it would matter if there was. The church would have made up their own mind and people would have followed.
Also, could Christmas be considered a form of worship?
Maybe - guess it depends on how you define 'worship'.
I always find it funny that now days one must 'define' their own words now. I personally like keeping it simple by using a dictionary. Do people use those anymore? Anyway....

Merriam-Webster

worship noun

Definition of worship
1 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power also : an act of expressing such reverence
2 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
3 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem

isn't Christmas all of these things?

FWI
Sage
Posts: 500
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:50 pm
Location: USA

Post #36

Post by FWI »

Christmas: Would Jesus celebrate it?

Well, that would depend on how Christmas is viewed and celebrated. If we review the practice as observed today, then no; he most certainly wouldn't. However, if we would consider the practice of celebrating one's birth, maybe at some point (in his physical life), he did or his immediate family did…There is no biblical instruction, which forbids the practice of acknowledging the birthday of one's children. So, to engage in a practice, which would point to the birth of the Messiah, doesn't seem to be that far-fetched, especially for the Israelite community, at the corresponding time period…

The problem arises, not because of a celebration. But, when and how…The bible is pretty clear that December 25 is not the birthday of the Christ! The more realistic time period would be mid to late September or early October, which would correspond to the time period of Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles and the last Great Day. Which, points to a time, when peace and goodwill, as well as, the Kingdom of God will be upon this earth. Now, who wouldn't want that to occur? This would surely be something to celebrate…

Avoice
Guru
Posts: 1006
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:41 am
Location: USA / ISRAEL
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 34 times

Post #37

Post by Avoice »

[Replying to post 10 by Tcg]

But God said dont eat it.

Nothing that enters in can defile you? Have some arsenic with that bacon. It wont defile you.

Avoice
Guru
Posts: 1006
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:41 am
Location: USA / ISRAEL
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 34 times

Post #38

Post by Avoice »

I dont know why Christians celebrate anything. They are dead. Like the tree they kill and decorate as if it were still living. Christianity is for those who choose death over life

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8487
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Post #39

Post by Tcg »

Avoice wrote: [Replying to post 10 by Tcg]

But God said dont eat it.
Quite obviously, the Son of God has a different opinion.

Nothing that enters in can defile you? Have some arsenic with that bacon. It wont defile you.
Arsenic is not food, it is poison. If one ingested some, it would poison the body, not defile it. Mentioning it in this context is irrelevant and an invalid diversion from Jesus' point.

Bacon is not poison, and according to God's son, no food will defile a body so bacon would be allowed.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8487
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Post #40

Post by Tcg »

Avoice wrote: I dont know why Christians celebrate anything. They are dead. Like the tree they kill and decorate as if it were still living. Christianity is for those who choose death over life
Jesus of course would strongly disagree with your assessment:
  • "I came that they may have life and have it abundantly."
Jesus' very purpose for coming to earth was to provide life.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

Post Reply