Why the need to be sheep and child like?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 9342
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 883 times
Been thanked: 1242 times

Why the need to be sheep and child like?

Post #1

Post by Clownboat »

viewtopic.php?t=36551&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50
"Like I said, only 8 people were saved during the flood, which indicates the bible God is concerned with quality over quantity."

Is being childlike or like a sheep a needed attribute to believe such a claim like the one above? I ask, because of the response that came from someone that does not embrace being like a child or sheep.

"Quality? Noah get's drunk shortly after the flood, goes to bed naked, and then curses his son for noticing. Certainly God could have picked a better crew if quality were his goal." - Tcg

I cannot un-see this response, so I'm wondering if being childlike or sheep like is the attribute that is needed in order to more or less ignore this reasoned response so a person can continue to make unjustified conclusions about a god being concerned with quality or whatever attribute they are placing on their god concept.

Is encouraging someone to be childlike or to be like a sheep not similar to telling them "don't think about it"? Especially if those words came from the person claiming to be their shephard.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6443
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 324 times
Contact:

Re: Why the need to be sheep and child like?

Post #2

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Clownboat wrote: viewtopic.php?t=36551&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50
"Like I said, only 8 people were saved during the flood, which indicates the bible God is concerned with quality over quantity."

Is being childlike or like a sheep a needed attribute to believe such a claim like the one above? I ask, because of the response that came from someone that does not embrace being like a child or sheep.

"Quality? Noah get's drunk shortly after the flood, goes to bed naked, and then curses his son for noticing. Certainly God could have picked a better crew if quality were his goal." - Tcg

I cannot un-see this response, so I'm wondering if being childlike or sheep like is the attribute that is needed in order to more or less ignore this reasoned response so a person can continue to make unjustified conclusions about a god being concerned with quality or whatever attribute they are placing on their god concept.
Is it a reasoned response? (I am not commenting on the first response in your quote above; just the claim of the second post.)

1 - Noah did not curse his son for noticing that he got drunk and went to bed naked. He cursed his son for going and getting others to see him naked (after having gotten drunk). His brothers, on the other hand, covered up their father's nakedness and did not look (or go and point out his nakedness for others to see).


2 - So what if Noah drank too much and went to bed naked? His righteousness was based upon Him listening to God and obeying (which he would have done from love). Getting drunk and going to bed naked does not at all negate that.

Is encouraging someone to be childlike or to be like a sheep not similar to telling them "don't think about it"?


I suppose that depends upon who is speaking and what they mean by it. But if we are referring to Christ and what He means, then no, it does not mean 'don't think about it'.


From a previous discussion we had in another thread, I wrote:
In fact, He tells His sheep to be on the lookout for those who would mislead us; to watch out for false prophets and false christs; to test even those who claim to be apostles (but who are false) - and NOT to listen to them.
viewtopic.php?p=981589#981589


That does not sound like someone who is saying 'don't think about it'. He also teaches by asking questions - a method of teaching which encourages and requires thinking.

He even said to the crowds at one point: "Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?"

**

And who says children do not think? Children question, seek, ask, listen and learn. Those things require thinking, yes?




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

User avatar
Divine Insight
Savant
Posts: 18070
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Here & Now
Been thanked: 19 times

Post #3

Post by Divine Insight »

Why the need to be sheep and child like?

Demanding this mentality is the best way to push a theology that makes no sense.

If you ask too many questions you will be accused of not being child-like and not acting like a sheep.

Apparently telling people to act like this works pretty darn well to keep a seriously troubled religious folklore afloat. Just look at how many people have accepted this mentality.
[center]Image
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]

User avatar
ttruscott
Site Supporter
Posts: 11064
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: West Coast of Canada
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Why the need to be sheep and child like?

Post #4

Post by ttruscott »

Clownboat wrote:Is being childlike or like a sheep a needed attribute to believe such a claim like the one above?
Your question is a strawhorse that no matter how much you beat it like a drum, it will never rise up to life and take you where you want to go - it misses the mark because it is dead.

The child like attribute Christ extols is humility, not gullibility: Matt 18:3 “Truly I tell you,� He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever HUMBLES himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

I could copy all fifty synonyms for gullible for you or you can take my word that humble is not among them.

Neither is gullibility the sheep like quality that earns His sinful elect their name but rather it is stupidity in stubbornness. Sheep are considered by those that know them the second most stupid domesticated animal on earth, after the turkey. All the elect had heaven within their grasp but out of idolatrous loyalty to their friends who chose hell rather than ever to be married to YHWH, some of HIS elect rebelled against the call for the judgement, the single most stupid move in all of time and creation.

Therefore in my considered Christian opinion, your question has no value in leading us to any better understanding of Christian doctrine.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Why the need to be sheep and child like?

Post #5

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 4 by ttruscott]

While I agree with your point about children, a simple google search will reveal that far from being stupid sheep are surprisingly intelligent creatures.
Sheep are one of the most unfairly stereotyped animals on the planet. Almost everything we believe about them is wrong
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170418 ... ess-either
Jesus was in no way insulting his disciples intelligence by comparing them to sheep.


JW

RELATED POSTS

Was Jesus kind to animals?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 55#p992555

Would Jesus have had a donkey [interesting facts]
viewtopic.php?p=1026563#p1026563

Did Jesus once try and ride two donkeys at the same time?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 04#p867704

Was Jesus insullting his followers by comparing them to sheep?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 16#p991216

Does the bible teach God will burn up all the animals ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 90#p964790

Where do animals go when they die?
viewtopic.php?p=347553#p347553

Will there be pets in heaven?
viewtopic.php?p=1027090#p1027090


To learn more please go to other posts related to...

.THE PURPOSE OF LIFE, ANIMALS and ... THE EARTHLY PARSDISE
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Jun 13, 2022 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Online
User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11342
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 312 times
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: Why the need to be sheep and child like?

Post #6

Post by 1213 »

Clownboat wrote: …I cannot un-see this response, so I'm wondering if being childlike or sheep like is the attribute that is needed…
I think it depends on what is meant with childlike or sheep like and in what sense.

Sheep follow their shepherd. If truth and love is the shepherd, is it bad or wrong? I think that depends on what is the reason to follow. I think we are not asked to follow blindly. And being a “sheep� doesn’t necessary mean that one is stupid and ignorant. “Sheep� can follow, because he understands it is good and wise. I think that is why the requirement for to get eternal life is actually righteousness, not sheepness.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

And the childness, what is meant with that? Childs have many good attributes. For example, imagination, open-mindedness, not pompous…. Of course, they don’t know all, but I think much more important is the ability to learn and understand. I hate when children are despised.

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 9342
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 883 times
Been thanked: 1242 times

Re: Why the need to be sheep and child like?

Post #7

Post by Clownboat »

ttruscott wrote:
Clownboat wrote:Is being childlike or like a sheep a needed attribute to believe such a claim like the one above?
Your question is a strawhorse that no matter how much you beat it like a drum, it will never rise up to life and take you where you want to go - it misses the mark because it is dead.

The child like attribute Christ extols is humility, not gullibility: Matt 18:3 “Truly I tell you,� He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever HUMBLES himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

I could copy all fifty synonyms for gullible for you or you can take my word that humble is not among them.

Neither is gullibility the sheep like quality that earns His sinful elect their name but rather it is stupidity in stubbornness. Sheep are considered by those that know them the second most stupid domesticated animal on earth, after the turkey. All the elect had heaven within their grasp but out of idolatrous loyalty to their friends who chose hell rather than ever to be married to YHWH, some of HIS elect rebelled against the call for the judgement, the single most stupid move in all of time and creation.

Therefore in my considered Christian opinion, your question has no value in leading us to any better understanding of Christian doctrine.
As a former childlike sheep of 2 decades, it was my experience that this childlike and sheep like behavior that is encouraged from the mouths of pastors sheds more understanding on Christianity than you would like to acknowledge.

Get adults to fall in line and raise up little sheep themselves and the religion will better persist.

To the OP.
My experience was having pastors take a verse out of context (for example) to bolster their weekly sermon. No good sheep would question their shephard. Therefore, I don't find this sheep mentality to be healthy. We should be encouraged to question those in authority, not to blindly follow. What's worse is that pastors don't have any actual authority, besides the authority being the shephard of their flock provides them.

Being humans with our own ability to reason should be encouraged, not to be part of a flock following a shephard. This applies to more than just religion obviously, but religion has the market cornered on this shephard/sheep thing.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 9342
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 883 times
Been thanked: 1242 times

Re: Why the need to be sheep and child like?

Post #8

Post by Clownboat »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 4 by ttruscott]
While I agree with your point about children, a simple google search will reveal that far from being stupid sheep are surprisingly intelligent creatures.
Perhaps you should take it up with the poster above you?
"Sheep are considered by those that know them the second most stupid domesticated animal on earth, after the turkey."
Sheep are one of the most unfairly stereotyped animals on the planet. Almost everything we believe about them is wrong
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170418 ... ess-either
Jesus was in no way insulting his disciples intelligence by comparing them to sheep.
We are encouraged to be sheep like so we don't question our shephards authority, not encouraged to be sheep in order to be dumb.

It is pastors and preachers that use the shephard/sheep analogies today. I assume they are trying to maintain their shephard status. Can't be a shephard without a flock. Hard to maintain a flock if they question your claims. Therefore, being childlike and sheep like would be a desired trait to have in your flock.

Being a sheep that follows a shephard is not a quality we should teach are children IMO. We should be teaching them to be reasoning humans, no?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

User avatar
ttruscott
Site Supporter
Posts: 11064
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: West Coast of Canada
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Why the need to be sheep and child like?

Post #9

Post by ttruscott »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Sheep are one of the most unfairly stereotyped animals on the planet. Almost everything we believe about them is wrong
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170418 ... ess-either
Jesus was in no way insulting his disciples intelligence by comparing them to sheep.
JW
:)

If they were being stubbornly stupid then it was no insult their intelligence at all - stubborn stupidity is NOT applicable only to the lesser intelligent...an obvious truism.

The disciples!!? I'm talking about every sheep He has in His flock, every sinful elect in existence who chose to go astray into evil by their own free will after receiving HIS promise of salvation by election to be HIS Bride! Well, smarter than the people who rejected YHWH before they came under HIS promise of salvation by rejecting HIM as a false god and a liar thereby becoming eternally evil and fit only for banishment to the outer darkness.

Of course those who believe that we are created evil from our dna have no acceptance of my position that GOD cannot create evil by any means even dna, and would never create those of HIS kingdom, HIS Bride, as evil for any reason.

My position is supported in that the best of the best of us sinful elect, chosen to be His companions, were rebuked for stubborn stupidity: Mark 16:14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

How many times is it recorded He called them 'of little faith' though He had been teaching them for years? 5 times He referred to them as men of little faith when He could have said, you stubborn sheep!

Though not a shepherd, I have heard of sheep trying to get between two trees and with no impediment to backing up, ie, they are not stuck, starving to death for refusing to back up and go around.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Why the need to be sheep and child like?

Post #10

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 9 by ttruscott]

Stubborness is generally associated with other animals such as goats or mules. I dont think that the metaphor was to highlight any negative qualities at all.

Jesus did speak about sheep that strayed or got lost, I suppose that could be seen as negativeb but even that might be due to being or young or weak not necessarily stubborn. And of course sheep are amonst tne most defenseless of animals but being vulnerable isnt necessarily negative nor is a synonym of stupidity.

If you're stupid you are vulnerable but if you're vulnerable you're not necessarily stupid.


JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Post Reply