Should Christians keep the law?

[otseng]

From the thread Keeping the commandments:

Do you keep the law?

Questions for debate:
Should Christians keep the law?
If so, how much of the laws should we keep?

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]
What you say is somewhat true. Its not that you aren't obligated. You are forbidden to keep them. That's right. If you decide to obey Gods commandments then Jesus wont save you. Are you hearing this? What kind of theology has that for a stipulation? Let me put it in plain terms: if you obey the laws God commanded we keep then you are "going to hell". Its that threat of going to hell part that has Christians. Seriously...dont obey God is what you are required NOT to do. And thats okay in your mind?

Wait... there's more!!

Jesus ONLY covers sins that are under the first covenant. Which means if you disobey the laws Jesus preached your insurance (jesus) wont cover it . The stuff Jesus preaches is outrageous. I dont know any Christian who gives to those who asks and turns none away. (Id like $100 please) or who loves their enemy. The list goes on.

You guys have not read the fine print. You heard "going to hell" and "eternal life" and signed on the dotted line. I suppose the response Christians will have is that jesus really diesnt mean any of this. That its a metaphor for something that sounds better.

Your ancestors should have stuck with God and Moses. Because they led you into a no-win situation. You had a bird in the hand and let go for two birds in the bush. Only you cant cstch them. You have until you take your last breath to call on the first bird to come back.

Like a partridge that sitteth on eggs and hatches them not is he who getteth riches and not by right shall leave them in the midst of his days and in the end will be be a fool.

A religion that tells you that you will live forever but you must disobey God. The serpent told Eve she that if she disobeyed God shed live forever too. How did that work out? Cone on JW...to receive eternal life you must disobey God? You have to know in your heart that there is something wrong with that.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim]

And if you loved your neighbor you wouldnt FAIL to tell them the first four commandments when asked what they were. Thats how much Jesus loves his neighbor. He failed to mention them. So did Paul

I dont know you. Never met you. But I care enough to tell you to have no other Gods before you. Of all the 10 commandments only one God begins by saying REMEMBER. Well Jesus forgot. And the church forgot. So I will love you. Remember to keep the Sabbath holy. And for the love of God (who gave this commandnent) tge Sabbath is Friday sundown ubtil Saturday sundown. Now you can believe its Sunday all you want. Nut the truth if thst is that Emperor Constantine if the 'great' Roman Empire commanded that be the churchs holy day.

Love your neighbor and go tell them the truth. Friday sundown to Saturday sundown . Refrain from working. (ie: shopping, business transactions and going to your job) God gives you six days to do all that. Now go love your neighbor as i have loved you.

Wouldn't the first four commandments be within the parameters of the two greatest that Jesus spoke of? The first commandment is to have no other gods before YHWH. Wouldn't that be involved with what Jesus said about loving YHWH your God with your whole heart, soul and mind?

And then the second one that Jesus mentioned takes into consideration one's neighbor, loving him as you love yourself. If one does that one will carry out all the rest of the commandments.


(Matthew 22:36-40)

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]
What you say is somewhat true. Its not that you aren't obligated. You are forbidden to keep them. That's right. If you decide to obey Gods commandments then Jesus wont save you. Are you hearing this? What kind of theology has that for a stipulation? Let me put it in plain terms: if you obey the laws God commanded we keep then you are "going to hell". Its that threat of going to hell part that has Christians.

We aren't "forbidden" to keep the Law given to Moses. WE just don't NEED to. The Law was set up to show humans that they cannot keep every detail of the Law. We, in our imperfect bodies, are not able to do it perfectly. We can try to do all of the commandments, including slaughtering spotless bulls and lambs at the Temple (oh wait---it doesn't exist any more!), if we choose to. Nothing will happen to us if we try.

But you are missing the whole point. Since the Law pointed ahead to the Messiah, the Messiah must be sought out and followed. He was to fulfill the Law, so that death would not hang over men's heads. Yeshua bar Joseph accomplished fulfilling the Law. He fulfilled Isaiah 53. It wasn't the nation of Israel, it was the Messiah. The nation couldn't be the suffering servant (who "had no deception in his mouth," nor had he done any wrong [verse 9]), because Israel was full of deceit and "wrong" (Micah 6:12).

Since the Messiah came, the Law has become obsolete as a meaningful covenant. Since Israel disobeyed YHWH, He brought about another covenant, which has been discussed on this forum quite extensively. (Isaiah 65:2,3; Jeremiah 31:31)



(BTW, true Christians don't believe in a fiery hell. As every Jew knows, "hell" is simply the grave, correlating with "sheol." I imagine every Jew knows this.)

[otseng]

Jews traditionally recognize the 613 commandments should be kept (another list at Jew FAQ). Though Christians can keep these 613 commandments, as mentioned several times, there is no requirement for Christians to obey them and it's not necessary to follow them for salvation.

I believe Jews do not expect Gentiles to follow the 613 commandments. However, should Christians expect non-Christians to follow them? It can be a standard to which to judge what is considered acceptable and not acceptable in the sight of God. But, should it be a standard that everyone must follow? An example is Blue laws. Though Sunday is not the Sabbath day, the principle is forcing everyone to observe a day of worship and rest. If it's not a requirement for Christians to follow the law, why should it be imposed on everyone, including non-Christians, to follow the law?

In some cases, it's evident everyone should follow certain laws such as civil laws (do not kidnap, do not slay, do not rob). But should everyone be required to follow non-civil laws (such as enforcing a day of rest)?

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 52 by onewithhim]

Why didnt Jesus just repeat the commandnent as they are written? Why dies he leave you to have to question the commandments. The only ones Jesus omitted are the ones that are about our relationship with God. He is elusive to the first four. Why? Because he has taken God's place. If he were to come right out and say "Have no other Gods before God then it might dawn on people that they've out Jesus before God. And Christians don't dare see that otherwise that's the end of Christianity But Jesus stands between them and God.

Jesus wants people to believe he ys God but ge doesn't say it. But he eludes to it abdvthe people imagination did the rest. Look at the following dialogue. Nitutce that what the scribe said doesn't exclude Jesus from being the God that is being described. The scribe did not say anything that would show that jesus is not God. But he said it in a way that cant be used to exclude him as God. In short, its not saying he is God but will not say that he isn't
NOTICE WHAT JESUS SAID ABOUT THE SCRIBES ANSWER? THAT HE ANSWERED HOW? HOW? DISCREETLY!! Now why would Jesus think it would be okay to be discreet on this subject? What was it that was spoken discreetly? It was that it was stated in a way that didn't exclude Jesus as being God in Earth. Thats the whole thing with Jesus. He doesn't claim to be God. He just plants seeds in people's minds and they watered it. I like how it ends here. How they were apparently blown away by jesus' words that they didn't ask him any more questions.

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 55 by Avoice]

You really think Jesus believed he was God? Then why does he affirm the Sh'ma in the earliest Gospel, Mark? Isn't it more likely that Paul and some of the Gospel evangelists "planted the seeds" as you say? Especially John?

[Donray]

[Replying to post 1 by otseng]

We Jehovahs Witnesses believe the Mosaic Law code has been abolished, we dont have to keep any of it. Christans are under Christian law.


JW

Could you provide the bible reference where either God or Jesus sates that the laws are obsolete?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 1 by otseng]

We Jehovahs Witnesses believe the Mosaic Law code has been abolished, we dont have to keep any of it. Christans are under Christian law.


JW

Could you provide the bible reference where either God or Jesus sates that the laws are obsolete?

Judging by this reply I going to go out on a limb here and say you don't think anything Paul, John, Peter, or Luke wrote was not authored by God. Because if so, isn't that convenient...

[2timothy316]

I do have to say that if one wants to follow the bible(which should include God), then all followers of Christ would be Torah observant. Jesus led a Hebrew revival. He never spoke against the law. So, if you follow Yeshau, Joshua, Ieous, you follow the law of Moses. Unless, you wish to be least in the kingdom?

Yes, that's a good point. Jesus kept the laws of the Old Testament. As Christians, we're supposed to emulate Christ. So, shouldn't we also follow the laws of the OT?

If it applies yes. Yet not everything applies to God's people now that Jesus has come to do what his Father sent him to do.

What would be the purpose of sacrificing bulls, lambs, goats, etc now if Jesus the single sacrifice of all time to cover all sacrifices?

[2timothy316]

I do have to say that if one wants to follow the bible(which should include God), then all followers of Christ would be Torah observant. Jesus led a Hebrew revival. He never spoke against the law. So, if you follow Yeshau, Joshua, Ieous, you follow the law of Moses. Unless, you wish to be least in the kingdom?

Here is what Jesus said about the Law Code.

Then John’s disciples came to him and asked: “Why do we and the Pharisees practice fasting but your disciples do not fast?� At this Jesus said to them: “The friends of the bridegroom have no reason to mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, do they? But days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast. Nobody sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old outer garment, for the new piece pulls away from the garment and the tear becomes worse. Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins. If they do, then the wineskins burst and the wine spills out and the wineskins are ruined. But people put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.� - Matthew 9:14-17

The Mosaic Covenant of the Israelite times was fine for them. But things were about to change and a lot of it was not meant for a group of people that would be made up of people from around the world. What would be the point of forcing laws and festivals on people that have no bearing on them or that might even be nearly impossible for them to keep. Can you imagine some person in Spain trying to make to Jerusalem after having a child just do to the the purifying ritual? (Lev 12;6)

That doesn't cancel the law at all. Christ never spoke against the law. So you are now in God's authority to end it? If God makes a law, only God can resend it.

Jesus didn't speak against the Law, but he didn't say it would last forever either. He said that he was there to fulfill it. Bring it to completion. God said he would end it long before Jesus was born.

"“Look! The days are coming,� declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, ‘my covenant that they broke, although I was their true master,’ declares Jehovah.� - Jeremiah 31: 31, 32

So this 'new covenant' that is 'not like the covenant of Moses' was establish when Jesus came? Did happen before he came? Or are we still waiting for the 'new covenant' to be made?

The Bible as complete authority explain the Law Covenants. Both when they being and when they end. What do you make of Jeremiah 31:31, 32?