My view is that Matthew made things up. He stumbled on Jeremiah, lamenting as only Jeremiah laments:
“A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, weeping, and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children, refusing to be comforted, because they are no more.� Matthew 2:16-18 (NKJV)
What was upsetting the woman? Matthew explains that Herod was so annoyed at being deceived by the Magi that he just decided to kill all the male children, two years and under, in the entire region. A bit excessive. The incarnation was God's plan; the Magi were invited; so the murdered babies were collateral damage in God's plan. Rachel, in a town far away, is inconsolable, though she didn't know the babies personally.
What's Rachel got to do with anything?
Is this just Matthew inventing or can we believe the story?
Is Matthew blaming God - indirectly - for killing baby boys again?
Did Matthew invent the massacre of innocents?
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Re: Did Matthew invent the massacre of innocents?
Post #41JehovahsWitness wrote:Tart wrote:In Matthew that who he wrote about? Perhaps, but perhaps if it was prophecy, and came true, another Rachel existed in the time of the massacre... Is what I was questioning.
Tart,
The bible character by the same name didnt lose any of her children, on the contrary, her children lst her since she died at a young age giving birth to her second child, Benjamin. Its unlikely the Prophet Jeremiah was alluding to Rachel, Jacobs wife.
JW
Well if he wasn't referring to Rachel, (Jacobs wife) he was referring to one or more another women ( maybe symbolically to any sex) or he wasnt. Just because he said a womans name thatd doesnt mean he referred to a woman at all.
JW
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Re: Did Matthew invent the massacre of innocents?
Post #42FACT OR FICTION: WAS THE SLAUGHTER OF THE INNOCENTS FACT OR FICTION?
While Matthew alone records the slaughter of the baby boys on Herods order, this event harmonizes completely with known facts about his suspecious and ruthless character and known actions of Herod the Great.
KNOWN FACTS
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While Matthew alone records the slaughter of the baby boys on Herods order, this event harmonizes completely with known facts about his suspecious and ruthless character and known actions of Herod the Great.
KNOWN FACTS
- Herod testified against and personally orderd the strangulation two of his own sons (Alexander and Aristobulus)
- Herod personally and systematically wiped out all the remnants of the Hasmonean family.
his suspicious nature moved him to put his wife Mariamne on trial leading to her execution as well as that of , her brother and grandfather (Hyrcanus), several who had been his best friends, and many others - Before finally dying Herod order the execution of his Eldest son
- At his deathbed he ordered the arrest of every nobleman of every villiage in Judea with instructions that they be executed at his death (an instruction mercifully ignored after his passing).
CONCLUSION: There is no valid reason to doubt the accuracy of Matthews report of the slaughter of the innocents.
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CHRISTMAS , THE NATIVITY and ...JESUS OF NAZARETH
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Re: Did Matthew invent the massacre of innocents?
Post #43.
[Replying to post 42 by JehovahsWitness]
Okay, Herod was a nasty character who killed off relatives and associates. Perhaps similar to Kim Jong-un of North Korea.
NOW, is there evidence to support the gospel tale that he ordered the killing of all male infants? Surely other chroniclers of the era would have noticed / mentioned such a monumental atrocity and public records should have some mention.
None. Right? Not even other religious writers.
Weird don't you think? Only told about by a religion promoter decades or generations after the supposed event.
[Replying to post 42 by JehovahsWitness]
Okay, Herod was a nasty character who killed off relatives and associates. Perhaps similar to Kim Jong-un of North Korea.
NOW, is there evidence to support the gospel tale that he ordered the killing of all male infants? Surely other chroniclers of the era would have noticed / mentioned such a monumental atrocity and public records should have some mention.
None. Right? Not even other religious writers.
Weird don't you think? Only told about by a religion promoter decades or generations after the supposed event.
.
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Re: Did Matthew invent the massacre of innocents?
Post #44Let us not forget Herod had a bad temper and if the Unwise Men blundered by giving details of Jesus what can one expect from a cruel king? That's the evidence for.Zzyzx wrote:
NOW, is there evidence to support the gospel tale that he ordered the killing of all male infants? Surely other chroniclers of the era would have noticed / mentioned such a monumental atrocity and public records should have some mention.
"And at that hour corpses got up and walked about, and do you know? They were the corpses of holy men."
" and I have seen many documents and I am able now to trace Christ's ancestry back to Adam. Here is the exact genealogy..."
I submit, your Honour, that a man who can make up these stories is capable of making up a story about male children being slaughtered. It rings an Egyptian bell.
Re: Did Matthew invent the massacre of innocents?
Post #45[Replying to post 42 by JehovahsWitness]
It might be of interest to know that others have built on Matthew's story. December 28th is celebrated as Holy Innocents day. It is often claimed that these murdered children were given the gift of early entry into heaven.
A story associated with the supposed flight into Egypt (one wonders how much travelling money Joseph had) generates a surprising miracle. All the heathen statues in Egypt fell down in adoration as baby Jesus entered that land. Who can doubt this?
It might be of interest to know that others have built on Matthew's story. December 28th is celebrated as Holy Innocents day. It is often claimed that these murdered children were given the gift of early entry into heaven.
A story associated with the supposed flight into Egypt (one wonders how much travelling money Joseph had) generates a surprising miracle. All the heathen statues in Egypt fell down in adoration as baby Jesus entered that land. Who can doubt this?
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Re: Did Matthew invent the massacre of innocents?
Post #46[Replying to post 45 by marco]
Yes that is interesting I suppose to those that place the birth of Christ in December. There is a thread running about traditions that makes for interesting reading.
Thanks for sharing,
JW
Yes that is interesting I suppose to those that place the birth of Christ in December. There is a thread running about traditions that makes for interesting reading.
Thanks for sharing,
JW
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Post #47
People.. people...c'mon the so-called prophecy written in the Christian Testament is false. It states that the the massacre was foretold then quotes about Rachel weeping for her children because they are no more.
THAT IS NOT WHAT IT IS TAKING ABOUT. READ IT FOR YOURSELVES.
Rachel weeping isnt about the event with Herod. It is about the Babylonian exile for God sakes The writer of Mathew stopped quoting where he did for a reason. Had he continued then he couldn't fool Christians into believing the prophecy was fulfilled in the time if Jesus. That Herods massacre was predicted. ITS ABOUT THE BABYLONIAN EXILE. AND LOOK WHAT IT SAYS. (not verbatim) God says don't cry Rachel ill bring the exiles back to Israel.
Christian Testament PROPHECY FULFILLED ?? Rolling my eyes. Christians actually velueve it's a fulfilled prophecy. OMG.
READ:
Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy. And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.
THAT IS NOT WHAT IT IS TAKING ABOUT. READ IT FOR YOURSELVES.
Rachel weeping isnt about the event with Herod. It is about the Babylonian exile for God sakes The writer of Mathew stopped quoting where he did for a reason. Had he continued then he couldn't fool Christians into believing the prophecy was fulfilled in the time if Jesus. That Herods massacre was predicted. ITS ABOUT THE BABYLONIAN EXILE. AND LOOK WHAT IT SAYS. (not verbatim) God says don't cry Rachel ill bring the exiles back to Israel.
Christian Testament PROPHECY FULFILLED ?? Rolling my eyes. Christians actually velueve it's a fulfilled prophecy. OMG.
READ:
Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy. And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.
Slaughter of Innocents
Post #48Slaughter of Innocents
In Matthew's Gospel, Chapter 2, verses 13-18, part of the
Christmas Story is called ""the Slaughter of the Innocents"
At verse 8, King Herod tells the Magi.....
"Go and search carefully for the Child; and when you have
found Him, report to me, so that I too may come and worship Him."
But the Magi find Jesus, don't tell King Herod, and go home.
When Herod realizes he has been duped, he is furious and
gives the order to kill all the boys, two years old and under,
who live in Bethlehem and its vicinity.
But an angel appears to Joseph tells him to take Jesus to Egypt.
"""And [Jesus] was there [In Egypt] until the death of Herod:
that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the
prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son"""(Matthew 2:15)
The words spoken by the prophet, which Matthew claims were
fulfilled at Matthew 2:15 are found at Hosea 11:1.......
"""When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."""
As you can clearly see, Matthew's supposed fulfillment is totally bogus.
The complete verse Matthew quotes is not about Jesus or the Messiah,
but is a verse about Israel being called out of Egypt during the time of Pharaoh.
So King Herod slaughters all the innocent children under two years of age,
and Matthew again quotes the OT to supposedly show that Scripture has
been fulfilled. (Matthew 2:17-18)
Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying,
"""In Ramah was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and
great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted,
because they are not."""
The first problem with this supposed fulfillment is that Ramah is a town
located about 5 miles North of Jerusalem, and Bethlehem is a town
located about 5 miles South of Jerusalem. This quote isn't even about
Bethlehem. I purposely mention Jerusalem, in case a Christian thinks
that 10 miles from Bethlehem is still in the "vicinity."
If all the innocents in Jerusalem, a city, were slaughtered it certainly would
have made the news. As it was, there is absolutely no mention of this event
by any Historian, not even the famous Jewish Historian, Josephus, who
very carefully and completely wrote about King Herod.
The next problem with this supposed fulfillment is that the woman weeping
is Rachel, one of the wives of Jacob, the father of the 12 tribes of Israel.
Bethlehem is in the tribal land allocated to the tribe of Judah. King David,
was from the tribe of Judah, and had been born in Bethlehem. The problem
is that Rachel was not the mother of Judah. Leah was the mother of Judah.
If symbolically a woman was weeping for her children it should have been
Leah, weeping for the dead children of Judah, and not Rachel.
But there is an even GREATER problem with Matthew's supposed
Scripture fulfillment. I will quote the Scripture, Jeremiah 31:15-17, in its
entirety.....See if you can spot this GREAT problem?
Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and
bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted
for her children, because they were not.
Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine
eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD;
and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children
shall come again to their own border.
This Scripture isn't even about dead children. This Scripture is about
children who were taken into captivity, and would be restored to their
homeland.
Matthew totally misquotes Scripture.
In Matthew's Gospel, Chapter 2, verses 13-18, part of the
Christmas Story is called ""the Slaughter of the Innocents"
At verse 8, King Herod tells the Magi.....
"Go and search carefully for the Child; and when you have
found Him, report to me, so that I too may come and worship Him."
But the Magi find Jesus, don't tell King Herod, and go home.
When Herod realizes he has been duped, he is furious and
gives the order to kill all the boys, two years old and under,
who live in Bethlehem and its vicinity.
But an angel appears to Joseph tells him to take Jesus to Egypt.
"""And [Jesus] was there [In Egypt] until the death of Herod:
that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the
prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son"""(Matthew 2:15)
The words spoken by the prophet, which Matthew claims were
fulfilled at Matthew 2:15 are found at Hosea 11:1.......
"""When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."""
As you can clearly see, Matthew's supposed fulfillment is totally bogus.
The complete verse Matthew quotes is not about Jesus or the Messiah,
but is a verse about Israel being called out of Egypt during the time of Pharaoh.
So King Herod slaughters all the innocent children under two years of age,
and Matthew again quotes the OT to supposedly show that Scripture has
been fulfilled. (Matthew 2:17-18)
Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying,
"""In Ramah was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and
great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted,
because they are not."""
The first problem with this supposed fulfillment is that Ramah is a town
located about 5 miles North of Jerusalem, and Bethlehem is a town
located about 5 miles South of Jerusalem. This quote isn't even about
Bethlehem. I purposely mention Jerusalem, in case a Christian thinks
that 10 miles from Bethlehem is still in the "vicinity."
If all the innocents in Jerusalem, a city, were slaughtered it certainly would
have made the news. As it was, there is absolutely no mention of this event
by any Historian, not even the famous Jewish Historian, Josephus, who
very carefully and completely wrote about King Herod.
The next problem with this supposed fulfillment is that the woman weeping
is Rachel, one of the wives of Jacob, the father of the 12 tribes of Israel.
Bethlehem is in the tribal land allocated to the tribe of Judah. King David,
was from the tribe of Judah, and had been born in Bethlehem. The problem
is that Rachel was not the mother of Judah. Leah was the mother of Judah.
If symbolically a woman was weeping for her children it should have been
Leah, weeping for the dead children of Judah, and not Rachel.
But there is an even GREATER problem with Matthew's supposed
Scripture fulfillment. I will quote the Scripture, Jeremiah 31:15-17, in its
entirety.....See if you can spot this GREAT problem?
Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and
bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted
for her children, because they were not.
Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine
eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD;
and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children
shall come again to their own border.
This Scripture isn't even about dead children. This Scripture is about
children who were taken into captivity, and would be restored to their
homeland.
Matthew totally misquotes Scripture.
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Re: Slaughter of Innocents
Post #49I can accept that you don’t believe it is about the events during Jesus era, but I think your interpretation is much worse. The scripture tells they are no more. If it would be just that they are on a trip, there would be no reason to say they are no more.Red Wolf wrote: ...Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted
for her children, because they were not...
...This Scripture isn't even about dead children. This Scripture is about
children who were taken into captivity, and would be restored to their
homeland. ...
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Re: Did Matthew invent the massacre of innocents?
Post #50No, one wonders not!marco wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:52 pm [Replying to post 1 by marco]
The main lesson is that Matthew is a wonderful writer of fiction, gifted with a good imagination, able to take some innocent text and miraculously transform it into something significant in Christ's life.
One wonders how Matthew hit on the idea of having baby boys killed.
Matthew copied that from Moses!
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