Can we excuse Leviticus?

[marco]

Having watched a film, based on fact, where a young gay man was brutally beaten to death I turned to the enlightenment of Leviticus 20:13.


"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them."

This is apparently God speaking, the architect of universal harmony. Can this verse ever be justified? Apparently so. I learned that if the entire world resorted to homosexuality then Jesus would not have been able to come and redeem mankind. When Jesus did come, the law passed into disuse.

If the entire world had decided to be celibate, that too would have impeded Christ's arrival, so celibacy should also be an abomination. Maybe it is in some quarters though Paul didn't seem to think so.

Do we: Ignore Leviticus and any other bits of the Bible that seem brutal?
Do we say the old law is no longer needed?
Do we say that if a book inspires such hate, it is a bad book?

[Divine Insight]

Well we all have different views on what is good and bad, I have done my best to share mine on the Levitical prohibition of homosexual acts.

It's too late for that. You've already taken the position that God decides what's right or wrong, and that you just have to go by whatever God decides. So how can you possibly have a view on what's good or bad?

If the Biblical God says homosexuality is good, then you have no choice but to accept that it's good. If the Biblical God says that homosexuality is bad, then you have no choice but to accept that it's bad .

By your own theological argument you aren't in a position to have any views in the matter at all. Your views on what's right or wrong or good or bad are necessarily irrelevant by your own theological position.

You can't even argue that your God is good. All you can claim is that your God says that he's good and you have no choice but to accept this. That's your theological position. God has the final word on what's good or bad, not you, remember?

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 61 by Divine Insight]

If the Biblical God says homosexuality is good, then you have no choice but to accept that it's good. If the Biblical God says that homosexuality is bad, then you have no choice but to accept that it's bad .

The beauty of biblical edicts is that God doesn't have to give any reasons. If he doesn't like mixed fibres in clothing, or shellfish, or whatever, he just just has to have his earthly intermediaries declare them as forbidden and the true believers fall over themselves to decry anyone failing to step into line.

[marco]

Yes, the woman who drove her son to suicide through her strict observance of Leviticus shared your opinion.

I have no idea what woman you are referring to , but I do believe I have explained more than once in this thread that I do not believe we are under any of the Mosaic laws including that of Leviticus. If this woman believed as I do she most certainly would not adhere to a strict observance of an abolished law.

I was referring to the mother of Bobby Griffith, a young gay man who killed himself in 1983. His mother believed exactly as you do; your words could just as well be hers to her son. She accepted the condemnation of homosexuality, though of course like you she would not have required the death penalty, leaving that to God. When asked to choose between her beliefs and her son's way she chose her beliefs.

This story is portrayed in the documentary film Prayers for Bobby that shows how hard the boy tried to change himself and deny what he felt; it portrays the appalling lack of charity in his pastor commenting on his death as God's fair judgment.

As an animal species humans have aspired to great heights as well as plumbing atrocious depths. We might ask why a human mother might place her non-genius thoughts above the love of her son and our answer is that when we allow portions of a book to replace our common sense, as she did, we lose that gift of love and turn into stone.

Ironically we are enjoined in Psalm 95 to "harden not your hearts, as at Meribah, as on the day at Massah in the wilderness." Can we do otherwise if we do not reject the judgment in Leviticus?

I, like you do my best to verify what I believe is true and adhere to priciples of love, mutual respect and tolerance. Including refraining from mockery which, since we cannot know the mental and emotional state of another person, may have dramatic consequences.

There is sometimes a yawning chasm between our actions and our intentions, JW. I suppose that is why the words "I am sorry" were first constructed. The mother of the dead youth was very sorry.

Christ, I believe, taught us that love can break rules.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 63 by marco]

Okay, thanks for sharing. Was there anything in that you would like to accuse me of doing?

When asked to choose between her beliefs and her son's way she chose her beliefs.

Well, I cannot tell from what you wrote if her view on homosexuality was scriptural or whether her treatment of her son was in line with scriptural principles or not (even less what effect any of that may have had on her son's mental health) but I can say that if a true Christian is faced with a choice between their faith and devotion to God and another person (family or not) their priority should be God.

Christ, I believe, taught us that love can break rules.

If rules are bad, corrupt or unjust, then yes. What has that got to do with what I wrote?


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Do we say that if a book inspires such hate, it is a bad book?

The bible doesnt inspire hate. Laws are meant to protect the population against bad behaviour and if they are just, encourage good behaviour. There is nothing in the Mosaic law that should have inspired hate. Indeed, the Mosaic law was unique as a national law code in that it mandated love.

LEVITICUS 19:17 ESV
You shall not hate your brother in your heart ... take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself

So mistreatment, cruelty or hateful words or actions were illegal in Israel. Of course humans being imperfect often misinterpret a prohibition as an excuse for hatred. Jehovahs Witnesses experienced this in the United States when their Supreme court upheld the decision to expulse their children from schools for not saluting the flag. This unleashed a wave of attacks on the Witnessses in that country that lead to the countries first Lady at the time Mrs. Eleanor Roosevelt (wife of President F. D. Roosevelt) pleading with the public to cease such persecution. (A similar thing is presently happening in Putins Russia). The point being, that people often misinterpret an prohibition as a license for hateful behaviour. This was not to be the case in Israel and it certainly should not be the case for Christians.

HATING THE SIN NOT THE SINNER

All people have value in the eyes of God but this does not mean that all behaviours are acceptable to him. God reserves the right to stipulate the limits of sexual behaviour and does so for our own good. The bible condemns homosexual contact (intercourse and sexual acts). Such acts were prohibited by law in ancient Isarael. It did not justify ill treatment of anyone, including those that perhaps had same sex attractions.

While in today's climate people often translate any support for biblical standards as "hate", the reality is that one does not have to accept everything to love everyone. Christians should speak and treat people kindly regardless of their nationality, skin colour or sexual orientation and this obviously extends to family members. This does not mean however they should compromise their own standards or voice approval for things God condemns.



JEHOVAHS WITNESS




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[marco]

Okay, thanks for sharing. Was there anything in that you would like to accuse me of doing?

Goodness, I wouldn't presume, but if you are in the mood for penitence, watch the film and find similarities.

I can say that if a true Christian is faced with a choice between their faith and devotion to God and another person (family or not) their priority should be God.

I think the same applies to a "true Muslim" or a "true sun worshipper."

Christ, I believe, taught us that love can break rules.

If rules are bad, corrupt or unjust, then yes. What has that got to do with what I wrote?

Almost everything, probably.

[marco]

The bible doesnt inspire hate.

I never know whether you are teasing poor Marco for his lack of understanding of the Good Book. In my artless way I find the following inspiring anything but love:


"1 Samuel 15:3 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"

"Suffer not a witch to live" "You must hate your father" "Abraham take thy son whom you love and slay him."

Can you feel the love? I agree we can find places where love is on the menu too. That's not the point.

[Divine Insight]

The bible doesnt inspire hate

It most certainly does. It not only inspires hatred but it serves as a patsy for hateful bigots to hide behind.

Instead of taking responsibility for their own bigotry and hatred they push it off onto God.

"Don't look at me, it's God who hates what you are!"

That's about the most hateful thing you could ever say to anyone.

So it's not only a religion that teaches hatred, but it's a religion that offers hateful people the most disgusting excuse for decreeing hatred in the name of God.

And Christians basically use Jesus' name to spread their hatred.

"It's not me who hates what you are, it's Jesus. I have nothing to say about morality, God is the moral authority, not me."

The ultimate cop-out. Blame the hatred on Jesus.

[Difflugia]

The bible doesnt inspire hate. Laws are meant to protect the population against bad behaviour and if they are just, encourage good behaviour. There is nothing in the Mosaic law that should have inspired hate. Indeed, the Mosaic law was unique as a national law code in that it mandated love.

Deuteronomy 22:13-15, 20-21:

Suppose a man gets married to a woman and makes love to her. But then he doesn’t like her. So he tells lies about her and says she’s a bad woman. He says, “I got married to this woman. But when I made love to her, I discovered she wasn’t a virgin.� Then the woman’s parents must bring proof that she was a virgin. They must give the proof to the elders at the gate of the town.

...

But suppose the charge is true. And there isn’t any proof that the woman was a virgin. Then she must be brought to the door of her father’s house. There the people of her town will put her to death by throwing stones at her. She has done a very terrible thing in Israel. She has had sex before she got married. Get rid of that evil person.

I copied that from the VeggieTales NIrV Bible. It's for children.

[center][/center][center]"Could we borrow some stones?"[/center]

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 67 by marco]

Does the law against murderer and child abuse inspire hate?

Do laws against drunk driving? Wife beating inspire hate?

Are all your war veterans, judges and law enforcers inspiring hate?

Perhaps we mean different things when we say "inspire hate"; I took it to mean:

"encourage unjust, callous and inhumane treatment of a fellow human being".

I do not understand it to mean being devoid of all law or standards or sacrifice. Those that break just laws should be punished, this doesnt require preemptive hatred or indiscriminate hostility , it is simply a basic premise for justice. The existence and respect for law and order does not by definition encourage ("inspire") hatred. Love cannot thrive where justice is perverted and nobody is obliged to love what is bad. I dont for one mintue suppose we agree on what is "a just law" or what is "bad" but I am surprised by the implication that lawlessness must be implimented before hatred can be eliminated. Therein lies anarchy which is arguably an environment where love would have a hard time thriving.

In view of the above, I would love to read what you mean by "inspire hatred" (your examples lead me to conclude we are speaking about different things) but I have been here long enough to know such requests would go unanswered (and would possibly invite yet more attacks on my intellect, integrity and morals) so we will simply have to go by my definition (see above) and based in that, I repeat, the bible does not inspire hatred.


JW





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