Bathsheba's child

[Athetotheist]

In 2 Samuel 11, David gets Bathsheba pregnant and arranges her husband Uriah's death so he won't find out. In chapter 12 the prophet Nathan confronts David about what he has done and David repents. Nathan tells David that God has forgiven him, but then in verse 14 Nathan says this:

"However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also born to you shall surely die."

We are then told:

"And the Lord struck the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and it became ill. David therefore pleaded with God for the child, and David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground......Then on the seventh day it came to pass that the child died" (vv. 15-16, 18).

Here is a story in which a king does something scandalous and the king's national deity can't come up with any better way to deal with it than to strike an innocent child with a slow, wasting death.

When Bible-based arguments fail, Bible apologists often fall back on asking, "If you don't believe the Bible, where do you get your morals?" How moral would they consider any religion in which any other god did the same thing, in the same way, for the same reason we read about here? In what non-biblical context would they find this story morally acceptable?

[ttruscott]

They obviously didn't "to crush each other to pieces" because the babies were born whole and alive.

They were foetus!! No matter how sinful the intent and desire, they had no strength to achieve anything expect to hurt their mother!!!

a primitive root; to crack in pieces, literally or figuratively:--break, bruise, crush, discourage, oppress, struggle together.

Sure, but the root was indeed to crush in pieces, no matter how people distort it to fit their presumptions,

(I have no idea what the "orthodox opinion" is but if it does not recognise the difference between "to crush each other to pieces" and a simple struggle without imposition of cause, intent or outcome then it's garbage).

If you cannot yet see the cause plainly writ then I will wait for interventions...

[1213]

If you call abortion immoral, how can you call it moral for a god to take an innocent life for the crime of the guilty? What standard of morality would such a god set?

In Biblical point of view, it is possible that the baby still lives and is with God. I have not enough knowledge of what really happened, that is why I can’t say God is guilty for something evil and bad. But, because I believe God has given life, I also think God has right to decide how long it lasts and He doesn’t have to give eternal life for all.

How do you know there aren't other gods? Can you prove that those sacrificed by the Aztecs *didn't* become "companions of the sun", as was believed? Can you say for certain that the gods of Olympus or the Nile Valley didn't make themselves known to the ancients? How can you condemn those gods for behaving as they do in their legends if all it takes to defend them is to say, "They're gods, so they have a right to do as they will"?

I think it is possible that other gods have existed. I just wouldn’t keep them as my God, because I think they are in same level as people. And I don’t think "They're gods, so they have a right to do as they will". I think, God has given life, so He has then also right to decide how long life He gives.

As for learning a "short lesson" in this life, how can you question a Buddhist or Hindu for believing something similar? What makes their beliefs any less legitimate than yours?

For me beliefs are not so meaningful. I think all people are free to believe whatever they want. I am focused on what is truth, right and good. If they have some different idea of what is truth, right or good, then I would like to see what they are exactly saying and after that it could be possible to discuss do I agree or not and why. And then it is not about believing but about how the matter is understood. I think better understanding is greater than belief.

[1213]

…God's law states that adulterers where to be killed. Instead, God kills an innocent child. In this case, even God disobeyed his law just as you seem to be in favor of.

Bible doesn’t clearly say that the death of the child was a punishment from God. It tells that the child died, but there may be other reason for the death than a punishment. I would need more knowledge to say did there happen something wrong from God.

But it is true, they committed adultery and they would have deserved death, according to the law. However, law doesn’t make mercy a crime. Forgiveness is not forbidden in the Bible. God has right to forgive.

But if God forgave, why did the child die, you may ask. And I don’t know it surely. I believe that everything God does, has a good reason and God doesn’t do anything evil. That is why I believe also in this case there was some good reason for what happened. I also believe this is not the true life. True life is with God. So, I don’t believe death here is the end and worst that could happen. If it would be, then it would not be only the one child that is a problem, but all people who die. And I really don’t see why the one baby would be the most important and all other people and babies are ignored, especially when people murder them just to get nicer life for themselves.

Because there is the possibility that God saves to eternal life those who are innocent and righteous, I think death of a body is not the end and not a problem. But I don’t know what and why really happened to the child, so I am not able to tell did there happen something wrong.

[Athetotheist]

If you call abortion immoral, how can you call it moral for a god to take an innocent life for the crime of the guilty? What standard of morality would such a god set?

In Biblical point of view, it is possible that the baby still lives and is with God. I have not enough knowledge of what really happened, that is why I can’t say God is guilty for something evil and bad. But, because I believe God has given life, I also think God has right to decide how long it lasts and He doesn’t have to give eternal life for all.

After the followers of Molech made their children pass through the fire, maybe they believed that their babies still lived with their god too. Would that justify what was done to them?

I think it is possible that other gods have existed. I just wouldn’t keep them as my God, because I think they are in same level as people. And I don’t think "They're gods, so they have a right to do as they will". I think, God has given life, so He has then also right to decide how long life He gives.

If a god who says that "the son shall not bear the guilt of the father" (Ezekiel 18:20) makes a son bear the guilt of his father (2 Samuel 12:14), isn't that god acting on the same level as people? Wouldn't you call any other god hypocritical for doing the same thing?

For me beliefs are not so meaningful. I think all people are free to believe whatever they want. I am focused on what is truth, right and good. If they have some different idea of what is truth, right or good, then I would like to see what they are exactly saying and after that it could be possible to discuss do I agree or not and why. And then it is not about believing but about how the matter is understood. I think better understanding is greater than belief.

I agree that to understand truth, right and good is better than just to believe something. That's why I contend that the truth, right and good of *not* making a son bear the guilt of his father is better than believing that God would go back on that decree and make a son do so.

[Athetotheist]

Bible doesn’t clearly say that the death of the child was a punishment from God. It tells that the child died, but there may be other reason for the death than a punishment. I would need more knowledge to say did there happen something wrong from God.

The only reason given for the child's death is Jehovah's displeasure with David, so actually, we would need more knowledge to say that there was any other reason. Without such knowledge we're under no obligation, either intellectual or moral, to assume any more than is given.

But if God forgave, why did the child die, you may ask. And I don’t know it surely. I believe that everything God does, has a good reason and God doesn’t do anything evil. That is why I believe also in this case there was some good reason for what happened.

There's a problem here. You stated in your last reply to me that understanding truth, right and good is more important than what we believe. Here, however, you're choosing to *believe* that there is some unknown factor which makes the story make sense. In doing so, you're not putting your faith in the truth, right and good of God; you're putting your faith in what a certain story says *about* God.

[Tart]

In 2 Samuel 11, David gets Bathsheba pregnant and arranges her husband Uriah's death so he won't find out. In chapter 12 the prophet Nathan confronts David about what he has done and David repents. Nathan tells David that God has forgiven him, but then in verse 14 Nathan says this:

"However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also born to you shall surely die."

We are then told:

"And the Lord struck the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and it became ill. David therefore pleaded with God for the child, and David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground......Then on the seventh day it came to pass that the child died" (vv. 15-16, 18).

Here is a story in which a king does something scandalous and the king's national deity can't come up with any better way to deal with it than to strike an innocent child with a slow, wasting death.

When Bible-based arguments fail, Bible apologists often fall back on asking, "If you don't believe the Bible, where do you get your morals?" How moral would they consider any religion in which any other god did the same thing, in the same way, for the same reason we read about here? In what non-biblical context would they find this story morally acceptable?

To be Christian is to ask for forgiveness, and to forgive those who trespass against you...

This idea of "we are better then you, because our morals are higher" is a concept not based in the teachings of Christ, it is going against Christs teachings...

Who is righteous!? Who is good!?

In what context is this morally acceptable? Perhaps in the context of real life....

And you sir? The God King David worshiped is below you and your righteousness? Or are you a sinner?

It's not about me; it's about Zeus, Osiris, Odin, Marduk etc. If any of them were to strike an innocent child with illness and death for what the child's father had done, would you cut them as much slack as you cut King David's God? Would the same thing make them morally acceptable in the context of real life to you?

This is a interesting question and its funny you bring it up...

I have been in study, and thinking about the Trojan war...

Bizarre that you bring it up... Because im starting to hypothesize that the Hittites themselves were the Trojans.... That is the land of the Hittites (though some scholars i have read have separated the two, but why idk...)...

I think the Trojan war may had been a war between God's... And it's funny, here we have the story of David, sending Uriah the Hittite to go fight in the front lines of a war... I wonder what war he fought in?

The only innocent person to ever die was Jesus on the Cross... So if it was Zeus who killed Christ, is he guilty?

idk... this is only philosophical metaphysics

Just one day after this post, i opened a book about Homer's Iliad... A review...

Quoted saying:

"Together with the Bible, the Iliad represents the foundation of Western literature, thought, and spirituality: of culture in the broadest sense. That banal truism sontains the permanent split in Western consciousness: Our cognition and aethetis are Greek, but our religion and morality-whether Christian, Moslem, Judiac-make us people of the Book..."

Did you know that when Paul was writing his epistles. He was writing them to the Greeks? For instance... When Paul wrote to the Corinthians, in which he wrote about love (love is patient, love is kind, etc...) that is a Greek city that worships Aphrodite, the goddess of love...

These epics, are my next step in studies... though... im not sure if they are true... I know life comes from the Gospels, though these epics are very interesting... I think its possible the Greek Gods dwell among us... Though i wont elaborate on that... Because crazy talk leads no where, and it can lead to confusion of the truth...

[Tart]

The foundation of Greek mythology, are shadowed by the truth of Christianity.. Their philosophy, government, knowledge and wisdom, is shadowed by Christianity... Its interesting...

Though I ponder this collision of Gods... A prophet warned me of such studying... What is better?? Knowledge wisdom? Gnosticism? Or giving up studies, and going out and making believers of all nations?

I am totally ready to give up all prophecy, and gnosticism... In fact i pray to give it up... Let the world, and its spirit, work normally...

[Athetotheist]

The foundation of Greek mythology, are shadowed by the truth of Christianity.. Their philosophy, government, knowledge and wisdom, is shadowed by Christianity... Its interesting...

Though I ponder this collision of Gods... A prophet warned me of such studying... What is better?? Knowledge wisdom? Gnosticism? Or giving up studies, and going out and making believers of all nations?

I am totally ready to give up all prophecy, and gnosticism... In fact i pray to give it up... Let the world, and its spirit, work normally...

"The first Indo-Europeans reached what became Greece around 3000 B.C.E., assimilating with the indigenous peoples......The indigenous peoples were sedentary agriculturalists, probably with a goddess-centered culture......

"The Greek authors presented a unified picture of the Greek goddesses and gods, but this picture is misleading. Cult inscriptions allow us to formulate a clearer picture of the deities, who were worshiped in many local manifestations. Further, it appears that although the goddesses are often subordinated in the literature, they retained many of their pre-Indo-European powers in actual ritual and cult practice. Thus, despite the Classical fragmentation and dimunition of powers, there are intriguing hints of the significant power of the Greek goddesses."
---Miriam Robbins Dexter

Greek culture wasn't so much "shadowed" by Christianity as OVERshadowed by it. Christianity and its abrahamic counterparts bear more resemblance to the male-dominant, warrior-god philosophy of the Indo-Europeans.

[Tcg]

…God's law states that adulterers where to be killed. Instead, God kills an innocent child. In this case, even God disobeyed his law just as you seem to be in favor of.

Bible doesn’t clearly say that the death of the child was a punishment from God.

Of course it does. The Bible couldn't possibly be clearer about that fact.


Tcg