Was Jesus really raised from the dead or is it just a story?

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Difflugia
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Re: Was Jesus really raised from the dead or is it just a st

Post #11

Post by Difflugia »

onewithhim wrote:I'm wondering what Bible version you are reading. All of my versions that I have in my library (and I have dozens) show that Matthew, an apostle with Jesus, wrote about Jesus' resurrection, around the year 41 A.D.. That was before Paul's contribution to the fact.
Unless you mean you have dozens of the same Bible, I call shenanigans.

I collect Bibles and study Bibles in particular, so I checked a bunch that I thought might have a date as early as 41. The scholarly consensus is that Matthew was written after AD 70, so I knew I didn't have to check anything academic that was published by Oxford or HarperCollins and went for stuff from Zondervan, Tyndale, Thomas Nelson, and the like. I first looked through ones for specific translations (i.e. "The xxx Study Bible" where xxx is a translation): NIV, ESV, NKJV, NLT, (H)CSB, and several publishers' versions of The KJV Study Bible. I checked MacArthur, Blackaby, Ryrie, and Scofield. I tried The Apologetics Study Bible, The Case for Christ Study Bible, The Archaeological Study Bible, The First Century Study Bible, and even The American Patriot's Study Bible. None of them suggested a date before AD 50 as even possible and most tried to put it in the 60s. I admit that I was disappointed to find that The NIV: Stock Car Racing Edition didn't have book introductions, because I totally wanted it to be the one.

I finally thought to check one that I only have electronically. It's the only one that offered a date before AD 50 and, unsurprisingly, the specific date of AD 41. I'm pretty sure we both know which lone, solitary Bible that is.

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Re: Was Jesus really raised from the dead or is it just a st

Post #12

Post by Red Wolf »

onewithhim wrote:
polonius wrote: Jesus was crucified for claiming to be the messiah in about 32 AD. Acts of the Apostles tells us he spend 40 days on earth and then ascended into heaven.

But the first writing claiming that Jesus was raised from the dead is in Paul's 1 Corinthians which dates from about 53 AD. Paul was in the east and was not a witness, but claims there were 500 witnesses none of whom nor the hundreds they would have told wrote anything about it nor did any of the four gospel writers.

Were there any witnesses during the 40 days Jesus spent on earth, and if so why didn't they leave any records (nor did any of the Roman soldiers in Jerusalem who would have been aware of the event have told Pilate)?

Was this just a story or a historical event?
I'm wondering what Bible version you are reading. All of my versions that I have in my library (and I have dozens) show that Matthew, an apostle with Jesus, wrote about Jesus' resurrection, around the year 41 A.D.. That was before Paul's contribution to the fact.

Anyway, if the apostles and others weren't convinced and didn't believe that Jesus had been brought back from the dead, would they have gone on to expose themselves to indescribable torments and deprivations and difficulties to get the Gospel truth out to all the nations?

Peter and the others had gone back to their former jobs after Jesus was crucified. It took at least a second meeting with him after his resurrection to get them motivated again to carry on Jesus' work. But after that breakfast on the beach, they were fired up. They wouldn't have carried on, and the movement would have stopped in its tracks, if Jesus had not been resurrected.


.
Any proof for your assertions?

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Did Jesus Rise From the DEAD?

Post #13

Post by Red Wolf »

Did Jesus Rise From the DEAD?
Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence.
What is the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus? An empty tomb story and questionable post mortem occurrences?
If a body is missing from a tomb, do we assume that the corpse has resurrected? Or do we try and discover who moved the corpse?
There are many possible explanations of why the corpse was moved. Ask me if you can't think of any. But Matthew's gospel appears to close the "loophole" with the guards on the tomb. But the guards on the tomb story is most certainly fiction. We have four gospel writers telling the same tale and yet only Matthew mentions guards. The guards are so important to the tale, that if it were true the other gospel writers would most certainly have mentioned the guards.
But Matthew didn't close the loophole tight enough with his guards on the tomb fiction.
Matthew 27:62-66 (New American Standard Bible)
62Now on the next day, [day in the Greek means daylight hours] the day after the preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together with Pilate,
63and said, "Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I am to rise again.'
64"Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure until the third day, otherwise His disciples may come and steal Him away and say to the people, 'He has risen from the dead,' and the last deception will be worse than the first."
65Pilate said to them, "You have a guard; go, make it as secure as you know how."
66And they went and made the grave secure, and along with the guard they set a seal on the stone.
So you see that Jesus' corpse was placed in the tomb, and the NEXT DAY, during daylight hours, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together with Pilate, and requested a guard be placed on the tomb. THE FIRST NIGHT THE CORPSE WAS IN THE TOMB THE TOMB WAS UNGUARDED. Anyone could have opened the tomb, removed the corpse, and closed the tomb to conceal the fact that the tomb was now empty.
So the empty tomb story proves nothing.
But what about those that saw Jesus post mortem?
We have Mary Magdalene.
Mark 16:9 (New American Standard Bible)
9Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons. [See also Luke 8:2]
I would expect that any woman with seven demons would be considered a crazy woman mentally ill in today's world. Jesus may have calmed her down so she appeared normal.[cured] But most likely the shock of Jesus' sudden death and the loss of his soothing words may have pushed her back into a state of delusion. In any event she was not a competent witness.
But what about those 500 brethren who all saw Jesus at the same time post mortem according to Paul? This fiction is ridiculous. Did someone rent out a "Hall," and invite 500 brethren to all come at the same time to see Jesus? I am certain that this is Paul's fiction since Jesus only had 120 followers in the upper room on Pentecost when they all received the Holy Spirit.
What about Jesus' Apostles?
Matthew 28:16-17 (New American Standard Bible)
16But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated.
17When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.
This is an amazing Scripture passage. Here we have 11 men who lived with Jesus several years, they see Jesus post mortem and some of them have doubt?
I have my own theory of how the Jesus resurrection story started with the Apostles. Many were fishermen, probably others were laborers of some kind. Fishing in those days was hard work. But when they traveled with Jesus they got used to the soft life. They preached, and passed around the baskets, and didn't have to row boats and pull nets out of the sea.
After Jesus died they went back to their old hard life.
John 21:3 (New American Standard Bible)
3Simon Peter said to them, "I am going fishing." They said to him, "We will also come with you." They went out and got into the boat; and that night they caught nothing.
They fish, they catch nothing, but then one disciple thinks he sees Jesus on the shore.
John 21:7 (New American Standard Bible)
7Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, "It is the Lord." So when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put his outer garment on (for he was stripped for work), and threw himself into the sea.
Notice that Peter does not recognize Jesus. He "heard that it was the Lord." It is just some stranger on the shore, but at that moment Peter realizes that if Jesus were alive they could all go back to the soft evangelists life and to Hell with the hard fisherman's life.
It is interesting that post mortem, Jesus only shows himself to his own followers. He promised the high Priest and his entourage that they would see him. [Mark 14:62] But they never did.
Jesus promised his evil and adulterous generation that they would see him post mortem, [Matthew 12:39-40] but they never did.
If the Scientologists claimed that L Ron Hubbard resurrected, came to their conference, and then went to Heaven, would you believe them? So how can we believe a story when only Jesus' followers are the witnesses?
We have an extraordinary claim that Jesus rose from the dead, but the evidence for the claim is very poor.
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Any history recorded at the time, of just a story?

Post #14

Post by polonius »

Red wolf posted:

(quote) Matthew 28:16-17 (New American Standard Bible)
16But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated.

17When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.

This is an amazing Scripture passage. Here we have 11 men who lived with Jesus several years, they see Jesus post mortem and some of them have doubt? (quote)

RESPONSE: Yes It is amazing. because it was written by the writer we now call Matthew a non- witness) fifty years (c. 80 AD) after the fact.

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Re: Proof Matt's Gospel is Fiction...so is the resurrection.

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Post by marco »

[Replying to post 8 by Red Wolf]

This is very well argued. In a court of law all that would be necessary would be to recount Matthew's story about holy corpses walking to Jerusalem. There would then be no further questions.

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Re: Was Jesus really raised from the dead or is it just a st

Post #16

Post by marco »

onewithhim wrote:


Anyway, if the apostles and others weren't convinced and didn't believe that Jesus had been brought back from the dead, would they have gone on to expose themselves to indescribable torments and deprivations and difficulties to get the Gospel truth out to all the nations?

Yes. Again and again through history people have subjected themselves to awful tortures in the belief that they are serving truth. Apparently some of the sacrificial victims of the Aztecs went willingly to have their hearts torn out because they believed so strongly in their gods. Roman Catholics - and I understand some view their faith as false - have willingly had themselves burned to death in support of their faith. And today we have Muslim martyrs blowing up not just themselves but any others they can take with them to the next world. So the apostles may well have believed- but that does not mean they were right.


The suggestion: Peter did X therefore Jesus must have risen from the dead isn't too convincing. Peter flew thrice round the sun might help a bit.

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Re: Was Jesus really raised from the dead or is it just a st

Post #17

Post by marco »

Difflugia wrote:

I collect Bibles and study Bibles in particular, so I checked a bunch that I thought might have a date as early as 41. …………………………………………..

I finally thought to check one that I only have electronically. It's the only one that offered a date before AD 50 and, unsurprisingly, the specific date of AD 41. I'm pretty sure we both know which lone, solitary Bible that is.
I admire your industry. Sometimes faith speaks so stridently that the small voice of research is hardly heard.

After 2000 years Jesus in some minds is comfortably in heaven, having taken his hyperbolic path to where only lambs and angels live, busy with his brush preparing rooms for corpses. I suspect nothing will unconvince the convinced.

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Matthew Tells Another Fabulous Tale

Post #18

Post by Red Wolf »

There are several verses in Matthew's Gospel that do not appear in any of the other New Testament writings.
Whenever I read these verses, my imagination wanders, and I think about what this might have been like if it were really true.
Matthew 27:50-53(King James Version)
50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Just imagine for a moment what Matthew is describing.....
Jesus cries out with a loud voice and dies.
Causing an earth quake which opens the graves of the saints, and they arise from the sleep of death.
But even though the saints are now miraculously alive, they hang around in their open graves from Friday afternoon until Sunday morning when they come out of the graves after the resurrection, and go into the city of Jerusalem.

Isn't this a strange and unbelievable tale.
I wonder who these saints were? How long had they been dead? How many saints are we talking about? Matthew did say "many". Would "many" be more than 50% of all the saints that ever lived , died, and were buried at Jerusalem? This could be a very large number of "saints" since Jerusalem had been a city of the Jews for almost 1000 years. How were these "many" chosen from "all" the saints who lived and died at Jerusalem? Were there a few prophets, like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zechariah, Malachi etc in this group of "many" who arose from the dead?

While these saints who had just arose from the dead were laying around their graves from Friday afternoon until after the resurrection Sunday morning, did they get hungry or thirsty? I can't imagine there isn't much to eat or drink at a graveyard. What about toilet facilities? Toilet paper? Any shade from the sun in a graveyard? Or did they work on their tans....get a little color....I imagine that they must have been a little pale from being dead.

What about clothes. If they were buried like Jesus wrapped in a linen shroud they wouldn't have anything stylish to wear when they paraded through the gates of Jerusalem. I wonder if the linen shrouds hadn't rotted and they would of had to have presented themselves to the folks in Jerusalem "au naturale," "in the buff", naked. In my imagination the scene of the risen saints entering Jerusalem must have been similar to the movie "Dawn of the Dead" where the dead come out of their graves and swarm into the city. I imagine such a scene would scare the hell out of most people.

But what happened when the risen saints got back to their former homes? Were their families gone? Was someone else living in their house? Was their spouse now married to someone else. Was everything from their former life now gone? How could their family, work, wealth, possessions, there former life, be restored?

If this really happened it would have been the biggest news event in the history of the world. But unbelievably, Matthew is the only one to mention it. Not a word from anyone else. I would have expected that at least one of the risen saints would have written about his miraculous recovery from being dead. What about the Roman authorities? Surely someone would have notified Rome. What if a former prophet was among the risen saints, might he have written another book of prophecy? But Nothing else was wtitten that we know of.

So what happened to these saints? Did they die again at some future time?

Hebrews 9:27(King James Version)
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

But if the saints died again, they would have died twice. But ""it is appointed unto men once to die"". Wouldn't this be a contradiction?

Is it possible to really believe that this fabulous tale is true?

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Re: Proof Matt's Gospel is Fiction...so is the resurrection.

Post #19

Post by Red Wolf »

[Replying to post 15 by marco]

I posted Matthew's tale of the corpses coming to Jerusalem.

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Post #20

Post by polonius »

onewithhim wrote:
I'm wondering what Bible version you are reading. All of my versions that I have in my library (and I have dozens) show that Matthew, an apostle with Jesus, wrote about Jesus' resurrection, around the year 41 A.D.. That was before Paul's contribution to the fact.

RESPONSE: Er. When was the Gospel of Matthew written? What evidence do you offer? :-s

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