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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:14 am
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Was Jesus unwell?

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When asked to defend his position Jesus said - according to Matthew of course -
"Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?" Matthew 26: 53

I suspect the listener quite certainly felt the appeal for twelve legions would be met with silence. But Christ's boast was never tested.

One wonders what twelve legions of angels would be armed with; and one also ponders why a single angel would not suffice. I am often told that context is important and Christ is speaking at a time when the major world power accepted Mercury as a divine messenger; Gabriel is maybe Mercury by another name.

If Jesus genuinely thought that he had armies of angels at his disposal can we deduce he was mentally ill?

If a man on trial today said he could summon a regiment of aliens to help him, he might be judged not guilty but insane. Why do we treat Jesus differently?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:18 am
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Re: Was Jesus unwell?

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[Replying to post 1 by marco]

To be fair to Jesus we are viewing him through the eyes of Matthew, the man who thought corpses shook off soil and paraded to Jerusalem. One can imagine Jesus saying: "Don't defend me, Matthew."

All the same many take Matthew seriously so we must question the stability of Christ who, possibly pleading for his life, talked of squadrons of angels.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:31 pm
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Re: Was Jesus unwell?

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[Replying to marco]

The ability to command angels is an extreme claim. Assuming that Jesus believed what he was saying (and was not intentionally deceiving people), then Jesus was either mentally deranged or the Son of God.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:30 pm
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bjs wrote:

[Replying to marco]

The ability to command angels is an extreme claim. Assuming that Jesus believed what he was saying (and was not intentionally deceiving people), then Jesus was either mentally deranged or the Son of God.



Rationality would opt for the former. However, the alternative to madness is not "son of God" which makes no sense, and in a monotheistic society, it cannot make Jesus God, but simply someone highly favoured, like one of the ancient prophets perhaps, who seemed to obtain strange powers from heaven.

From the accounts it would seem that Jesus did believe he was special and would return to earth after being killed.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:55 pm
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marco wrote:

Rationality would opt for the former.


That appears to be more bias that rationality. However, if you have a rational argument why the former is more likely, beyond just assuming it to be so, I would like to hear it.


marco wrote:

However, the alternative to madness is not "son of God" which makes no sense, and in a monotheistic society, it cannot make Jesus God,


Saying that “Son of God” makes no sense does not appear to be true. Please explain why specifically it makes no sense. Also, in a monotheistic society the title “Son of God” would require that Jesus be God. The only other option would be to abandon monotheism, which neither Jesus nor his Apostles seem to have done.


marco wrote:

but simply someone highly favoured, like one of the ancient prophets perhaps, who seemed to obtain strange powers from heaven.


In Hebrew culture at least such ancient prophets did not have power of that nature. Rather, they seemed subject to angels instead of being able to command them.


marco wrote:

From the accounts it would seem that Jesus did believe he was special and would return to earth after being killed.


Here we agree.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:38 pm
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bjs wrote:

[Replying to marco]

Assuming that Jesus believed what he was saying (and was not intentionally deceiving people), then Jesus was either mentally deranged or the Son of God.


There are of course more than two options here. Jesus may have been neither mentally deranged nor the Son of God.

He very well may have been an average human preacher whose followers crafted into a legend many years after his death. He had planned to reform Judaism, but when that failed spectacularly, his followers managed to salvage their movement by transforming him into a divine/human hybrid.


Tcg

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:31 am
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bjs wrote:

marco wrote:

Rationality would opt for the former.


That appears to be more bias that rationality. However, if you have a rational argument why the former is more likely, beyond just assuming it to be so, I would like to hear it.


My pleasure! Someone sees a flash in the sky that makes him temporarily blind.
It could be (a) a lightning flash (b) a message from God.

The rational choice is (a).

Asked where his defence counsel is, the accused says: "I have 12 legions of angels ready to descend to help me, only if I want them to."

There are various possibilities but you offer a choice of two: (a) insanity (b) divinity

The rational option is (a). Of course if one is a cousin of the accused, or an admirer, one might generously opt for (b). But I think that is where bias comes in.




Quote:

Saying that “Son of God” makes no sense does not appear to be true. Please explain why specifically it makes no sense.



It makes no sense to interpret the phrase as defining a father-son relationship, since this is imposing on God the joys of human "fatherhood". In the Koran Allah says: "God forbid that Allah should have a son!" He saw son as nonsense.

All is made well however if we take son of God to mean a nice person. In which case Peter is simply commenting on Christ's good nature.


Quote:

In Hebrew culture at least such ancient prophets did not have power of that nature. Rather, they seemed subject to angels instead of being able to command them.


Well I personally don't think they had any power but if one is of a mind to accept they had power from God, then I don't think it's subject to some divine statute of limitations. Jesus was able to cast out demons, entities one supposes that are above human control.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:50 am
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Tcg wrote:

There are of course more than two options here. Jesus may have been neither mentally deranged nor the Son of God.

He very well may have been an average human preacher whose followers crafted into a legend many years after his death. He had planned to reform Judaism, but when that failed spectacularly, his followers managed to salvage their movement by transforming him into a divine/human hybrid.


Tcg


Exactly. I believe C.S. Lewis was the one who made the claim that Jesus was either a lunatic or God famous.

The problem I suggest that Lewis had was that he couldn't get outside of the box of accepting that the Gospels were the "Gospel Truth". In other words, he felt that he had not choice but to accept that everything Jesus was claimed to have said in the Gospels Jesus must have actually said.

That's because Christians are so used to viewing the Gospels through this lens that what they say must be true. Therefore if the Gospels have Jesus saying something, then he must of actually said it. Not only did he say it, but he said it pretty much verbatim as the Gospels claim.

The problem with this is that this whole idea of the Gospels being the "Gospel Truth" is a theological idea that God had inspired the writing of the Gospels thus somehow protecting them or insuring that they contain the precise truth of what Jesus actually did and said.

What C.S. Lewis failed to recognize is that if Jesus was not the Son of God, or God incarnate, then there is no longer any reason to trust that the Gospels are accurate with respect to anything Jesus might have ever said. In fact, once we dismiss the divinity of Jesus as the Christ, then there's no reason to trust that anything in the Gospels is accurate.

So who's to say whether the actual man named Jesus ever said the things the Gospel rumors claim he said?

So C.S. Lewis is wrong. There aren't just two possibilities, there are THREE.

1. Jesus was a lunatic
2. Jesus was God.
3. Jesus was simply misquoted on many things, and perhaps even had things shoved in his mouth that he never even said to begin with.

I'm willing to bet that #3 is the most likely scenario.

If #3 is true, then it's meaningless to even judge Jesus based on what the Gospel rumors have him saying because there's a very good chance that he never even said most what had been attributed to him.

~~~~~~~

Another possibility also is that the real Jesus was actually an extreme lunatic, and the authors of the Gospels actually cleaned up his act and made him appear far more sane and reasonable then the original person who sparked the stories.

It could have gone either way.

I would think Jesus would have needed to be quite the jerk to actually get people so upset with him that they would crucify him. It just doesn't seem likely that they would have crucified a truly nice guy.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:29 am
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Divine Insight wrote:


The problem with this is that this whole idea of the Gospels being the "Gospel Truth" is a theological idea that God had inspired the writing of the Gospels thus somehow protecting them or insuring that they contain the precise truth of what Jesus actually did and said.


We need only read a few pages of Matthew to rid us of the misconception that the gospels speak truth. From the start of Christ's mostly hidden life angels fly in and out; blindness is cured by spittle; winds obey Christ; stinking corpses rise to his call; a visiting cherub sits in an empty tomb; a gravity-defying ascension takes him home to heaven in the sky!

Most of this is embroidery. The man had been fascinated by messianic messages in the Scripture he was fed and saw himself as God's favourite, eventually thinking that legions of angels were at his disposal.... but not just yet. In many ways he is to be pitied. CS Lewis composed similar fictions.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:50 am
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marco wrote:

When asked to defend his position Jesus said - according to Matthew of course -
"Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?" Matthew 26: 53

I suspect the listener quite certainly felt the appeal for twelve legions would be met with silence. But Christ's boast was never tested.

One wonders what twelve legions of angels would be armed with; and one also ponders why a single angel would not suffice. I am often told that context is important and Christ is speaking at a time when the major world power accepted Mercury as a divine messenger; Gabriel is maybe Mercury by another name.

If Jesus genuinely thought that he had armies of angels at his disposal can we deduce he was mentally ill?

If a man on trial today said he could summon a regiment of aliens to help him, he might be judged not guilty but insane. Why do we treat Jesus differently?


Is it a crime to think a certain way? Are you really suggesting that thought in this manner could be “wrong” in some sense!? Is mental illness a crime!!?? A sin to simply live as God made you!!!???

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