Did Christ crave worship?

[marco]

Jesus comes to us beautifully gift wrapped, especially at Christmas. His biographers have written wonderful eulogies to the extent that many think he had to be a god.


He told his friends not to say anything about his miracles or his identity. (Matthew 8, Matthew9 and Matthew 16) But of course his purpose was to display his divine gift so he wanted publicity.

When he asked: "What are people saying about me?" was he just seeking flattery?

And when he demanded that people love him more than their own children was he encouraging idolatry, like pop stars today?


Did Jesus crave worship?

[marco]

Please tell what translation has your version of the matter?

We are straying from the point and becoming rooted in translations and interpretations. Do you suppose there is ONE correct version? Anyway:


It is the Contemporary English Version (CEV) that gives:

"You cannot be my disciple, unless you love me more than you love your father and mother, your wife and children, and your brothers and sisters. You cannot come with me unless you love me more than you love your own life."

Many versions try to avoid the word "hate" which seems a silly choice of expression for Jesus.

Bible tells God doesn’t live in man made temples. It doesn’t mean the temple is not God’s. It was done for God and for praying, but people turned it to something else, which is wrong.

I wonder how one copes with issues about television or telephones, since the Bible has not pronounced on these things.

Back to the OP: Christ seems to have demanded that people love him more than they love anyone else. This seems very conceited and narcissistic. No?

[William]

[Replying to post 31 by ]

marco: Back to the OP: Christ seems to have demanded that people love him more than they love anyone else. This seems very conceited and narcissistic. No?

William: That depends on how one interprets "Christ" marco.
In the thread "Is This True?" I posted a meme which - if a true interpretation - would mean that Jesus was not demanding they love him (or an image of him) "more than they love others."

[marco]

[Replying to post 31 by ]

marco: Back to the OP: Christ seems to have demanded that people love him more than they love anyone else. This seems very conceited and narcissistic. No?

William: That depends on how one interprets "Christ" marco.
In the thread "Is This True?" I posted a meme which - if a true interpretation - would mean that Jesus was not demanding they love him (or an image of him) "more than they love others."

If people make Christ a deity then he is demanding worship. The complication is that Christ confused love with religious respect. Perhaps Jesus understood love only in religious theory. I find it impossible to believe anyone can "love" God but they can reasonably claim they love the character described as Jesus. Yahweh makes himself inaccessible to love, except in a false sycophantic sense.

[SallyF]

Jesus comes to us beautifully gift wrapped, especially at Christmas. His biographers have written wonderful eulogies to the extent that many think he had to be a god.


He told his friends not to say anything about his miracles or his identity. (Matthew 8, Matthew9 and Matthew 16) But of course his purpose was to display his divine gift so he wanted publicity.

When he asked: "What are people saying about me?" was he just seeking flattery?

And when he demanded that people love him more than their own children was he encouraging idolatry, like pop stars today?


Did Jesus crave worship?

We may never know for certain.

But certain Christians choose (in commandment-breaking images) to depict their Divine Leader as ACCEPTING flattery, idolatry and worship.

While his contemporary followers declare him "King of Israel" (and NOT "Lord and Saviour") as he curiously rides side-saddle through Jerusalem.

[1213]

..."You cannot be my disciple, unless you love me more than you love your father and mother, your wife and children, and your brothers and sisters. You cannot come with me unless you love me more than you love your own life."

Many versions try to avoid the word "hate" which seems a silly choice of expression for Jesus.

All translations and source scriptures I have in use say “hate� and not what your version says. I think it is interesting how you have managed to find version that is not direct translation.

Back to the OP: Christ seems to have demanded that people love him more than they love anyone else. This seems very conceited and narcissistic. No?

I think it is wrong translation to say he demands love. I wouldn’t call Jesus narcissistic.

[marco]

All translations and source scriptures I have in use say “hate� and not what your version says. I think it is interesting how you have managed to find version that is not direct translation.

And what would you call a "direct translation"? The use of the word "hate" seems to require an explanation and the translators attempted to reach Christ's meaning in a format that sounded less savage.

I think it is wrong translation to say he demands love. I wouldn’t call Jesus narcissistic.

So does he demand hate? What sense do you make of the advice to "hate one's children"?

[1213]

…the translators attempted to reach Christ's meaning in a format that sounded less savage.

I think it is wrong to twist the message to any direction, even if it would sound nicer, especially when it causes possible contradictions with rest of the book.

So does he demand hate? What sense do you make of the advice to "hate one's children"?

The word can be also translated to detest and the meaning is probably to feel intense dislike for something. If one likes own life and family much, how could he go and follow Jesus and preach the message? Obviously, person who likes own life, doesn’t go to follow Jesus, because his own life is more important to him.

If anyone comes to me, and doesn't hate his own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he can't be my disciple.
Luke 14:26

Is it wrong? I don’t think so. It doesn’t mean person doesn’t love others, because as it is said in the Bible, disciples of Jesus should love even their enemies. And if one loves, he doesn’t do anything wrong to others.

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

In this case I think the problem is really in what meaning we give to word “hate�. By what the Bible tells, I think it is not bad or wrong, but what do you think the word “hate� means?

[marco]

In this case I think the problem is really in what meaning we give to word “hate�. By what the Bible tells, I think it is not bad or wrong, but what do you think the word “hate� means?

I do not "think" what the word means - I know what it means. When somebody suggests that a person should hate his children, the person so suggesting is either wicked or is abusing language. I suppose Christ was just being provocative, as usual. He is like those preachers who demand that followers should die for them, and some do.

You may attribute some good reason for Christ demanding subservience to him and love but the normal interpretation would be that Christ is being selfish. If Christ and his disciples had ended up being killed together, people today would admire the "sacrifice" pointless and silly though it is. There was absolutely no reason for some Palestinian to provoke hatred and get himself executed as an exhibitionist act. It did nothing to the prevailing power of Rome; it turned Jews against him and turned people against Jews; and if we are to believe the gospels, his mission was the cause of infanticide. It is hard to see what good Jesus did. Words are cheap.

[1213]

…I do not "think" what the word means - I know what it means…

Please tell, what is the correct meaning?

…You may attribute some good reason for Christ demanding subservience to him and love but the normal interpretation would be that Christ is being selfish.

I think that is Argumentum ad preferentiam.

…Words are cheap.

Also your words?

[marco]

Please tell, what is the correct meaning?

Any good dictionary will tell you what "hate" means.

…You may attribute some good reason for Christ demanding subservience to him and love but the normal interpretation would be that Christ is being selfish.

I think that is Argumentum ad preferentiam.

I have never seen the noun "preferentia" used in Latin, though I agree that after the preposition "ad" one would use preferentiam. Have you any idea what the phrase means?

I am making the commonplace observation that if somebody demands excessive love he is being selfish. I don't think that slips into any logical fallacy.

So, after this etymological diversion, we can ponder Christ's selfishness. I am guessing that you cannot defend Christ in this instance. Nor can I.