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polonius
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:49 pm  Some basic Catholic beliefs. Reply with quote

These have been described as the basic beliefs of Catholics, although also true for some other Christian groups.

The Bible is the inspired, error-free, and revealed word of God.

However, the Bible contains numerous errors. Perhaps a most obvious one is the date of Jesus birth. Matthew claims that Jesus was born during the reign of King Herod who died about 4 B.C. Luke claims that Jesus was born during the 6 AD Roman census of Judea.

Baptism, the rite of becoming a Christian, is necessary for salvation — whether the Baptism occurs by water, blood, or desire.

The necessity of Baptism claim had its origin with St. Augustine who used a Latin mistranslation of Paul’s “Romans.” This contained the infamous “in quo” which lead to the reasoning that everyone was born with the guilt of Adam’s “Original sin” and hence were damned to hell unless baptized.

• God’s Ten Commandments provide a moral compass — an ethical standard to live by.

One of any number of moral codes.

The existence of the Holy Trinity — one God in three persons.

Catholics embrace the belief that God, the one Supreme Being, is made up of three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Trinity story (ie Three coequal persons in God) had to be developed to cope with the conflict with Jewish law “Hear O Israel, the Lord is one.”

Jesus began to be considered God in the early 80 AD’s by Christians leading to their be anathematized by Jews and excluded from the Jewish synagogues as apostates.
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 21: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:17 am
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Re: Is the Church infallible in its interpretation of script

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polonius wrote:

Difflugia posted:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is considered an authoritative source for Catholic doctrine.

Paragraph 113, discussing principles for the interpretation of Scripture:

Quote:
2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church.” According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (“according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church”).

I'm not entirely sure what you think we're arguing about. You asked for a source that the Vatican claimed that tradition overrides Scripture. Without claiming that I believed any of it, I provided you with a quote from the Catechism and gave you a link to look it up yourself if you want to.


RESPONSE:
Thank you for correcting my views. Since “inerrant” scripture contains so many errors, perhaps the Church is wise to switch it’s belief to “the living tradition of the whole church” (or not)so it can change it when necessary in an attempt to explain away errors such as the birth of Jesus both during the lifetime of King Herod who died before 4 BC (Matthew) and again during the 6 AD census. Also the error in Matthew that Jesus sent for and rode two animal when entering Judea. Etc.

And did you know that until quite recently the “living tradition” of the Church contained the teaching about Limbo (for children who died without being baptized)? Pope Benedict admitted the it really was never in scripture)

Here’s another “living tradition” of the Catholic Church. If one is Catholic, does one have to believe it?

We say, pronounce, sentence, and declare that you, the said Galileo, by reason of the matters adduced in trial, and by you confessed as above, have rendered yourself in the judgment of this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely, of having believed and held the doctrine—which is false and contrary to the sacred and divine Scriptures—that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west and that the Earth moves and is not the center of the world; and that an opinion may be held and defended as probably after it has been declared and defined to be contrary to the Holy Scripture;


If one is Catholic, does one have to believe it?


So much for the “living Church traditions"


They make the same mistake as the tribe of Judah did. Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. Modern Jews do the same claiming tradition overrules all else. Wish the Karites held sway now/

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 22: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:59 pm
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Re: Some basic Catholic beliefs.

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polonius wrote:

These have been described as the basic beliefs of Catholics, although also true for some other Christian groups.

The Bible is the inspired, error-free, and revealed word of God.

However, the Bible contains numerous errors. Perhaps a most obvious one is the date of Jesus birth. Matthew claims that Jesus was born during the reign of King Herod who died about 4 B.C. Luke claims that Jesus was born during the 6 AD Roman census of Judea.

Baptism, the rite of becoming a Christian, is necessary for salvation — whether the Baptism occurs by water, blood, or desire.

The necessity of Baptism claim had its origin with St. Augustine who used a Latin mistranslation of Paul’s “Romans.” This contained the infamous “in quo” which lead to the reasoning that everyone was born with the guilt of Adam’s “Original sin” and hence were damned to hell unless baptized.

• God’s Ten Commandments provide a moral compass — an ethical standard to live by.

One of any number of moral codes.

The existence of the Holy Trinity — one God in three persons.

Catholics embrace the belief that God, the one Supreme Being, is made up of three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Trinity story (ie Three coequal persons in God) had to be developed to cope with the conflict with Jewish law “Hear O Israel, the Lord is one.”

Jesus began to be considered God in the early 80 AD’s by Christians leading to their be anathematized by Jews and excluded from the Jewish synagogues as apostates.

This thread is filled with so many falsehoods myths and fairy tales, it’s difficult to know just where to begin – so I’ll just start by debunking a few of the whoppers you guys are spreading here . . .

First off – claiming that the necessity of Baptism claim had its origin with Augustine is patently false. Even if you reject the Biblical arguments for the necessity of Baptism (John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Col. 2:11-12, Tit. 3:4-8, 1 Pet. 3:21) – you STILL need to address ALL of the Early Church Fathers who came BEFORE Augustine and preached Baptismal regeneration.

Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Cornelius I, Cyprian, and Ambrose all came BEFORE Augustine and ALL preached about the necessity of Baptism and its regenerative effects on the soul.

Please explain why YOU are claiming something that is historically-bankrupt . . .

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 23: Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:17 am
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Re: Some basic Catholic beliefs.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 24: Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:41 am
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[quote="Difflugia"]The Catechism of the Catholic Church[/url] is considered an authoritative source for Catholic doctrine.

Paragraph 113, discussing principles for the interpretation of Scripture:
Quote:
2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church.” According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (“according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church”).

This, in NO way make the claim that YOU are making - that the Church considers that Tradition "trumps" Scripture.
This paragraph from the Catechism is merely stating that Scripture must be read in CONTEXT instead of simply reading words off of a page.

Scripture itself puts Sacred Tradition ON PAR with Scripture:
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a letter from us."


This didn't "magically" go away after the Canon of Scripture was declared in the 4th century at the Council of Rome (AD 383).
There is NO expiration date on 2 Thess. 2:15 . . .

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 25: Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:34 pm
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MarysSon wrote:
This, in NO way make the claim that YOU are making - that the Church considers that Tradition "trumps" Scripture.
This paragraph from the Catechism is merely stating that Scripture must be read in CONTEXT instead of simply reading words off of a page.

Reread the paragraph. I've added emphasis to help.
Quote:
2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church.” According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (“according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church”).

The "context" here, as you put it, is first and foremost the living tradition of the Church within the hearts of believers as interpreted by the Holy Spirit . The "words off a page" are only of secondary importance regardless of context. Nobody's saying that Scripture isn't important, only that Catholic tradition as mediated by the Holy Spirit is more important.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 26: Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:05 pm
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Difflugia wrote:

Reread the paragraph. I've added emphasis to help.
Quote:
2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church.” According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (“according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church”).

The "context" here, as you put it, is first and foremost the living tradition of the Church within the hearts of believers as interpreted by the Holy Spirit . The "words off a page" are only of secondary importance regardless of context. Nobody's saying that Scripture isn't important, only that Catholic tradition as mediated by the Holy Spirit is more important.

What I'm reading here again is simply that we are NOT to simply read Scripture as test - but we are to take it into context with the constant living Tradition of the Church.

As I already showed you - Scripture itself places Sacred Tradition ON PAR with Scripture. Because of this - we cannot simply read Scripture by itself without the context of Sacred Tradition.
They go hand-in-hand.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 27: Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:22 pm
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MarysSon wrote:
As I already showed you - Scripture itself places Sacred Tradition ON PAR with Scripture. Because of this - we cannot simply read Scripture by itself without the context of Sacred Tradition.
They go hand-in-hand.

What you showed me is a single line by the person that wrote 2 Thessalonians, maybe Paul. It could be read the way you want, but that would require the author to consider "a letter from us" to be Scripture. If it is, in fact, by Paul, then that's probably not what it means, because there's no indication that Paul considered his own writings to be Scripture. If 2 Thessalonians is by Paul, then Paul agrees with the Catholic Church that Christian tradition trumps Scripture. If it's not, and the author of 2 Thessalonians, like the second century author of 2 Peter, thinks that the Pauline epistles are Scripture, then the verse you quoted might mean what you think it does.

Might.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 28: Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:50 am
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Difflugia wrote:

MarysSon wrote:
As I already showed you - Scripture itself places Sacred Tradition ON PAR with Scripture. Because of this - we cannot simply read Scripture by itself without the context of Sacred Tradition.
They go hand-in-hand.

What you showed me is a single line by the person that wrote 2 Thessalonians, maybe Paul. It could be read the way you want, but that would require the author to consider "a letter from us" to be Scripture. If it is, in fact, by Paul, then that's probably not what it means, because there's no indication that Paul considered his own writings to be Scripture. If 2 Thessalonians is by Paul, then Paul agrees with the Catholic Church that Christian tradition trumps Scripture. If it's not, and the author of 2 Thessalonians, like the second century author of 2 Peter, thinks that the Pauline epistles are Scripture, then the verse you quoted might mean what you think it does.

Might.

You didn't actually READ 2 Thess. 2:15 - did you?

NOWHERE does it mention "Scripture". Again - Paul states the following:
2 Thess. 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a
LETTER from us."

WE call it "Scripture" because it IS.
Peter, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit ALSO refers to Paul's letters as "Scripture":
2 Pet. 3:15-16
And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other SCRIPTURES.


And NOWHERE does it say that Tradition "trumps" Scripture - and NOWHERE does the Catholic Church make this foolish claim.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 29: Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:38 am
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MarysSon wrote:
You didn't actually READ 2 Thess. 2:15 - did you?

I totally did.

MarysSon wrote:
NOWHERE does it mention "Scripture". Again - Paul states the following:
2 Thess. 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a
LETTER from us."

WE call it "Scripture" because it IS.

That's fine, but Paul didn't. Paul was talking about tradition as opposed to Scripture.

MarysSon wrote:
Peter, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit ALSO refers to Paul's letters as "Scripture":

Peter didn't write 2 Peter.

MarysSon wrote:
And NOWHERE does it say that Tradition "trumps" Scripture

2 Thessalonians 2:15 does.

MarysSon wrote:
- and NOWHERE does the Catholic Church make this foolish claim.

I thought the Catechism reflected official Church doctrine.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 30: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:25 pm
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Do Catholics really believe all infallible teachings?

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Moderator Intervention

Thread needs a question for debate.

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RESPONSE: You are right. I goofed again. Sad Sorry. I'll try to be more careful.

The above question pretty much summarizes the issue.

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