What is Jesus minus the miracles?

[marco]

Many Christians accept Jesus was a first class preacher, coiner of fine phrases. But many hesitate to accept the magical tricks he is reported to have performed. Even bishops have questioned the physical resurrection.
He's an unknown guy at a wedding party and with a few magic words he turns water to wine.
He arrives late for a funeral. "No problem. I'll bring the fetid the corpse to life."
And for treating blindness, he uses mud mixed with spittle.
Best of all when he's been crucified and buried he walks away leaving an angel with a message for mourners. "He's popped off to Galilee to buy some fish." Or something equally implausible.

Yes, the reports make us laugh but many through the ages have believed every word of them. Even when one of his biographers tells us corpses scratched their way out of the earth and went to visit relatives, people still believe.

Do Christ's miracles detract from his message?
Is Christ nothing if the miracles are fictional?

[marco]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]


We should treat Jesus with the same scrutiny we would accord to people today who said they had slain dragons or captured Nessie. Our first reaction must be to question and disbelieve. But when we are told some man from ancient Nazareth raised people from the dead, we treat the reports with sacred awe. Where is the external verification that Jesus was something other than a Robin Hood figure probably based on a real itinerant Jew, preaching interesting lessons?

The answer is: Sincere people like Matthew attested the truth of the stories. In Matthew 27 we have:
"At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people."

This embarrassing rubbish is included in the holy canon. It surely discredits miracles.

[JehovahsWitness]

Do Christ's miracles detract from his message?

No they supported it.

Jeus message was centered on a future kingdom that would alleviate this our planet earth of all human suffering. Jesus claimed to be the long awaited Messiah, that would bring all this about, "The Prophet" in the tradition of Moses. Although scripture does not specifically mention that one would prove his messiahship through miracles, they do speak of his having the power of Gods spirit ( which in the past empowered prophets to perform spectacular miracles) and eventually bringing about the aforementioned global changes. Miracles scripturally signal proof of one or more of the following ...

a) a develpment in the out working of the Divine purpose

b) claims of divine backing

c) evidence of the validity of future promises

In the case of Jesus, his miracles provided concrete verifiable and undeniable proof of all three. They validated his messiahship, provided evidence his promises of future world domination were solid and demonstrated his love for people and concern for human suffering.

[



JW

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JESUS , MIRACLES, and MESSIANIC PROPHECY

[marco]

Jeus message was centered on a future kingdom that would alleviate this our planet earth of all human suffering.

Jesus knew about Scripture, about David fighting the hero of a warring tribe, of David bringing back foreskins of slain enemies. He knew this and dozens of other quasi-historical facts. He had not the slightest notion of astronomy, of what the sun is and of its life-span. It has used up half of its hydrogen source and one day will expand into a red giant that David would not be able to beat, destroying Mercury, Venus and our own Earth but this will occur in a very distant future. Humans reach this view by calculation and pretty difficult study. You reach the view that Jesus will renew the earth from stories by people with no obvious learning.

In the case of Jesus, his miracles provided concrete verifiable and undeniable proof of all three. They validated his messiahship, provided evidence his promises of future world domination were solid and demonstrated his love for people and concern for human suffering.

They are not "undeniable" proof since I, for one, am denying that an ancient man was able to perform magical feats with or without a wand. We have a choice:
Believe a corpse rose or disbelieve. Reason assures us it did not, and so there's nothing undeniable about Christ's alleged feats. Reason happily denies they happened.

Since Jews were awaiting their Messiah and Jews did not accept Jesus then there was no clear proof he was the Messiah. Changing water to wine wasn't a messianic qualification.

There is no possible evidence that promises of a blissful future, fighting bravely against science, is a possibility. Again reason tells us that people age and they die; the earth too will die out.

The introduction of magic into Christ's brief period in the spotlight proves nothing but the willingness of ancient people to cling to extraordinary claims in the hope that life can be prolonged. It's an understandable wish that takes the sting out of life. We who have access to more scientific knowledge should not succumb as they did but comfort is comfort, wherever it comes from. It must be even more comforting to believe, truly, that one has been given a certificate of approval, for whatever obscure reason, to inherit an earthly paradise where lion tamers are unnecessary. In many ways Jesus did not make men wiser, just more superstitious.

[SallyF]

The possibly fictional Jesus character of Christian-Jewish propaganda had his vocation in a VERY competitive field.

Everyone who wanted to be someone had to impress the simple folk with magic.

Take away the claim that the Jesus character was sired by the local god, and could feed thousands with a few morsels of fish sandwich, and you just have an ordinary little bloke with a dodgy claim to the throne of King David.

But smoke, mirrors, inflation and omission are what propaganda is all about.

And the simple folk will swallow it, hook, line and resurrection.

[marco]

[Replying to post 5 by SallyF]

Surprisingly, Sally, wisdom occasionally walks with Jesus. We find erudite people straining their intellectual range to encourage us to accept incarnations, resurrections and ascensions.

When a research worker cures some illness the world watches and hears how it can be repeated. Jesus never allowed repetition. When he "ascended" lepers stayed with their leprosy, even though it would not have taken much for Jesus to say how a cure could be had. He didn't know. And he didn't cure anyone.

His story is an extended eulogy by worshippers who would write anything that magnified their subject. Without the miracles Jesus is a voice crying in the wilderness, and crying not too convincingly. If Jesus is an incarnation it the incarnation of human folly.

[SallyF]

[Replying to post 5 by SallyF]

Surprisingly, Sally, wisdom occasionally walks with Jesus. We find erudite people straining their intellectual range to encourage us to accept incarnations, resurrections and ascensions.

When a research worker cures some illness the world watches and hears how it can be repeated. Jesus never allowed repetition. When he "ascended" lepers stayed with their leprosy, even though it would not have taken much for Jesus to say how a cure could be had. He didn't know. And he didn't cure anyone.

His story is an extended eulogy by worshippers who would write anything that magnified their subject. Without the miracles Jesus is a voice crying in the wilderness, and crying not too convincingly. If Jesus is an incarnation it the incarnation of human folly.

With the use of modern technology, this bloke has been exposed as a fraud …



I suggest that this bloke would have been too ...



Confidence tricksters often use magic tricks to gain the confidence of the everyday folks.

Sometimes the propagandists call the magic tricks "miracles".

And with the power of faith the believers believe …

Though not a shred of hard evidence is EVER presented.

[Avoice]

Even with the miracles he is nothing. ESPECIALLY with the miracles he is nothing. Hid has told us not to be be influenced by such acts. He allows people to perform acts such as these to test us. To see if we will follow another voice.