God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 10 by onewithhim]

Because he was given the privilege of FREE WILL.

Having free will should make no difference to how a perfect human being behaves. On the other hand, if free will is actually a flaw that leads to mistakes, then God created humans with that flaw and he should accept responsibility for that.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 10 by onewithhim]

Because he was given the privilege of FREE WILL.

Having free will should make no difference to how a perfect human being behaves. On the other hand, if free will is actually a flaw that leads to mistakes, then God created humans with that flaw and he should accept responsibility for that.

Perhaps, just maybe, he does accept such responsibility.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 10 by onewithhim]

Because he was given the privilege of FREE WILL.

Having free will should make no difference to how a perfect human being behaves. On the other hand, if free will is actually a flaw that leads to mistakes, then God created humans with that flaw and he should accept responsibility for that.

Perhaps, just maybe, he does accept such responsibility.

I take it that means you agree that having free will should make no difference to how a perfect human being behaves. It's a start.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 10 by onewithhim]

Because he was given the privilege of FREE WILL.

Having free will should make no difference to how a perfect human being behaves. On the other hand, if free will is actually a flaw that leads to mistakes, then God created humans with that flaw and he should accept responsibility for that.

Perhaps, just maybe, he does accept such responsibility.

I take it that means you agree that having free will should make no difference to how a perfect human being behaves. It's a start.

A start of what?

Free will should, in theory, make no difference to how we behave.

But I suggest, having free will does in fact, for many people, make a huge difference.

But then, you do not seem to mean humans now, but presumably someone like Adam and Eve.

Well, we do not know whether or not they were created "perfect"; folk do assume they were, but the narrative does not specifically say that.

[Divine Insight]

Free will should, in theory, make nodifference to how we behave.

But I suggest, having free will does in fact, for many people, make a huge difference.

In that case those exceptions must be mentally unhealthy. So you're right back at square one again. Keep in mind that all humans don't need to be mentally unhealthy. All that is requires is one counter-example to healthy thinking and this leaves the creator with a huge problem.

Either the creator could not prevent that individual from becoming an unhealthy thinker, or the creator couldn't heal him.

In either case this religion shoots itself in the foot by decreeing that this God will condemn the mentally ill to hell.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 14 by Checkpoint]

Well, we do not know whether or not they were created "perfect"; folk do assume they were, but the narrative does not specifically say that.

If they weren't then God was being somewhat harsh inflicting the most horrific of punishments on a couple of hapless humans for merely being disobedient.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 14 by Checkpoint]

Well, we do not know whether or not they were created "perfect"; folk do assume they were, but the narrative does not specifically say that.

If they weren't then God was being somewhat harsh inflicting the most horrific of punishments on a couple of hapless humans for merely being disobedient.

"inflicting the most horrific of punishments on"?

"a couple of hapless humans for merely being disobedient"?

You are here exercising freedom of choice, which includes freedom to assess situations and persons and pronounce judgments on them.

So am I, but that results in disagreement. I find what you say to be unbalanced and therefore unjust.

One of us is "right" or both of us are "wrong".

Anyway, where do we go from here, do you think?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 10 by onewithhim]

Because he was given the privilege of FREE WILL.

Having free will should make no difference to how a perfect human being behaves. On the other hand, if free will is actually a flaw that leads to mistakes, then God created humans with that flaw and he should accept responsibility for that.

Free will is not a flaw. And every human and angel has this. They can choose to honor Jehovah and thus have the hope of living forever, or they can choose to resist Him and die. No imperfection is involved concerning the angels, and once Adam was perfect as well. Many angels followed Satan to "Tartarus," or, a state of spiritual darkness, but more angels chose to maintain their allegience to Jehovah. The perfect angel who became Satan exercised his free will and left Jehovah's heavenly family. Other angels exercised their free will and did not follow him.

So you think that perfect beings cannot choose to turn bad? I don't understand your way of thinking.



.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 18 by onewithhim]

So you think that perfect beings cannot choose to turn bad? I don't understand your way of thinking.

It might help if you clearly defined a perfect being.

[PinSeeker]

Coming face to face with the truth of a Holy God is a fearsome thing.

Why on earth should that be a fearsome thing?

I can't imagine a more wonderful thing than to come face to face with a truly intelligent loving and benevolent God. What would there be to fear?

This idea that God should be feared coming from theists simply makes no sense. It sounds like they don't trust this God to be truly intelligent, loving or benevolent.

I can certainly understand why they would fear coming face to face with the God described in the Bible, But that's only because the God described in the Bible is anything but intelligent, loving or benevolent.

So why would you fear an intelligent loving and benevolent God?

I'm curious to know.

You misunderstand what is meant by fearing the Lord. Or at least see it in a limited way. Not to say in any way that "you're limited," of course; I would never do that. I would just exhort you to open your mind. And in that, not to say in any way that you have a closed mind; I would never do that, either. It's just that it's much bigger than you're seeing, at least at the present. Here; let me help:

Servile fear is a kind of fear that a prisoner in a torture chamber has for his tormentor, the jailer, or the executioner. It’s that kind of dreadful anxiety in which someone is frightened by the clear and present danger that is represented by another person. Or it’s the kind of fear that a slave would have at the hands of a malicious master who would come with the whip and torment the slave. Servile refers to a posture of servitude toward a malevolent owner.

But it can be a filial fear (drawing from the Latin concept from which we get the idea of family). It refers to the fear that a child has for his father. In this regard, we can think of a child who has tremendous respect and love for his father or mother and who dearly wants to please them. He has a fear or an anxiety of offending the one he loves, not because he’s afraid of torture or even of punishment, but rather because he’s afraid of displeasing the one who is, in that child’s world, the source of security and love.

So, depending on the person and where he stands in relation to God and His great salvation, either one or the other of the above is true.

Grace and peace to you, DI.