God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[tam]

Peace to you Pinseeker,

I will say this to sum it all up:

I always did and I surely do see how annihilation can be understood from the aforementioned passages.

Pinseeker, if you do see how annihilation can be understood from those passages ... then how can you also say, "Annihilation is not supported in any way by these passages; it is not in view in the least".

By the same token, I always did and surely do see how the millennium of Revelation 20 can be understood to be a literal, future-only, 1000 year period.

Regarding the latter, I once did understand the millennium in that way, and for a good period of time.

I have since been taught, though, the error in that -- yes, by Christians past and present, but ultimately by God through Christ and by His Spirit -- and that to understand those passages in those ways is to inadvertently make Paul's and John's and ultimately, in the case of both, God's (as it's His Word we are discussing) massages out to be extremely shallow, which is assuredly not the case.

Extremely shallow? How so?

Are you perhaps confusing simple or straightforward with shallow?


Because it seems to me that simple (even though truth is simple) is not enough for many people. Many do not want and do not trust simple. They instead want complex, mysterious, unknowable. Sometimes they trust (and desire) things they cannot even fully grasp over something that they can understand (that makes no sense to me). Perhaps some of that comes from the (erroneous) belief that we cannot know God (even though this is in contradiction to the words that Christ spoke: Matt 11:27; John 14:7).



In any case, perhaps you could explain what you mean.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[myth-one.com]

So you believe humans cast into the lake of fire will still exist after their second death?

Round and round we go... You've asked this very question of me many times, and I have answered the same way that many times.

Yes.

Yes, you stated a long time ago that the unsaved are tormented eternally.

=================================================

Believers surely gain nothing from this eternal torment of nonbelievers.

Nonbelievers surely gain nothing beneficial from their eternal torment.

God gains nothing from this eternal torment of nonbelievers.

Other spiritual beings surely gain nothing from this eternal torment of nonbelievers.

Satan surely gains nothing from this eternal torment of nonbelievers.

The Church loses credibility due to this incomprehensible belief.

==============================================

Who profits from the eternal torment of nonbelievers?

Can anyone answer that question?

[PinSeeker]

Pinseeker, if you do see how annihilation can be understood from those passages ... then how can you also say, "Annihilation is not supported in any way by these passages; it is not in view in the least".

Because, Tammy, to say something can be understood in a certain way is not necessarily to say that understanding is correct or sound in any way. In the translation to English, we can lose the true import of what is actually being said in either the Hebrew (the Old Testament) or the Greek (the New Testament). And such is the case with understanding annihilation is any of the passages referenced (or anywhere else in the Bible).

Extremely shallow? How so?

I think I've been very clear on that. For example, to understand fire in the Bible only in the concrete ("wooden") sense of something orange and yellow and really, really hot and causative of burning things up to the point of not existing anymore -- rather than a concrete image of and therefore representative of God's judgment in the sense that He is a "consuming fire" and as such the Righteous, holy Judge -- is... extremely shallow (in reference to the understanding, not the person; you get that I'm sure).

Are you perhaps confusing simple or straightforward with shallow?

Well no, because both are simple and straightforward in the sense you're talking about. Regardless whether or not you buy what I'm saying is the correct understanding of these passages, surely you can see it as resulting from a simple, straightforward reading of the text.

Because it seems to me that simple (even though truth is simple) is not enough for many people. Many do not want and do not trust simple. They instead want complex, mysterious, unknowable. Sometimes they trust (and desire) things they cannot even fully grasp over something that they can understand (that makes no sense to me). Perhaps some of that comes from the (erroneous) belief that we cannot know God (even though this is in contradiction to the words that Christ spoke: Matt 11:27; John 14:7).

In general, I agree with everything in this paragraph. However, I am interested now, based on what you said at the end, here in hearing how you would reconcile the passages you cited above (Matthew 11:27, John 14:7) with the following (among others):

• * "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." [God, via Isaiah, Isaiah 55:8-9]
  
  * "Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high; I cannot attain it." [David to God, Psalm 139:6]
  
  * "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 'For who has known the mind of the Lord...?' " [Romans 11:33-34]

In addition to these passages, with a good concordance, it might be somewhat astounding to you to do a word search on the word 'mystery' and read through what turns up...

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

To you also, Tammy. Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

Believers surely gain nothing from this eternal torment of nonbelievers.

I agree. It is a heartbreaking thing to think about.

Nonbelievers surely gain nothing beneficial from their eternal torment.

Well, if it drives them to repentance from sin and belief in Christ, then they will have gained everything.

God gains nothing from this eternal torment of nonbelievers.

I agree with this also. But His justice, which cannot be compromised in any way, is satisfied.

Other spiritual beings surely gain nothing from this eternal torment of nonbelievers.

I agree.

Satan surely gains nothing from this eternal torment of nonbelievers.

I agree with this, too, but Satan is one of the ones who will endure this eternal torment.

The Church loses credibility due to this incomprehensible belief.

Well, number 1, it isn't incomprehensible, but only difficult for some to accept, and number 2, credibility is only in the eye of the beholder.

Who profits from the eternal torment of nonbelievers? Can anyone answer that question?[/quote]
Maybe no one else will, but I will. No one. As I stated above. But true it is.

[tam]

Peace to you both,

Just wanted to respond to mythone's post also:

Believers surely gain nothing from this eternal torment of nonbelievers.

I agree. It is a heartbreaking thing to think about.

Heartbreak? In a place where there will be no more suffering or mourning or tears or pain?

Nonbelievers surely gain nothing beneficial from their eternal torment.

Well, if it drives them to repentance from sin and belief in Christ, then they will have gained everything.

A - it cannot drive them to repentance from sin and belief in Christ, because it is eternal. Yes?

B - THIS is the choice that God has set before us, Pinseeker:

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you LIFE and DEATH, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, Deuteronomy 30:19


Life or death.

Life is the blessing. Death is the curse (death; not eternal suffering while still being alive for all eternity).


Simple.

God gains nothing from this eternal torment of nonbelievers.

I agree with this also. But His justice, which cannot be compromised in any way, is satisfied.

Hos so? What justice requires eternal torment of non-believers?


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 65 by tam]

I was talking about in this present life, Tammy. I agree with you (of course) that this is the choice before us -- in this life.

I wouldn't cross over into my conversation with myth-one, Tammy. I mean, you can if you want, but I think you would probably end up in the same... well... "hell" (see what I did there? )... as I find myself in.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

Believers surely gain nothing from this eternal torment of nonbelievers.

I agree. It is a heartbreaking thing to think about.

It's more heartbreaking that any Christian would believe their God would design such a system.

Nonbelievers surely gain nothing beneficial from their eternal torment.

Well, if it drives them to repentance from sin and belief in Christ, then they will have gained everything.

Are you admitting that fear is a basic driver of the Christian religion?

God gains nothing from this eternal torment of nonbelievers.

I agree with this also. But His justice, which cannot be compromised in any way, is satisfied.

Yeah, those nonbelievers deserve never ending torment.

How dare them.

Mahatma Gandhi seemed like a nice guy, but probably not a Christian. Would he be in everlasting conscious torment at this time?

Justice served?

Satan surely gains nothing from this eternal torment of nonbelievers.

I agree with this, too, but Satan is one of the ones who will endure this eternal torment.

According to the scriptures, Satan is the only being which will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

But having read the Bible, I'm sure you knew that.

The Church loses credibility due to this incomprehensible belief.

Well, number 1, it isn't incomprehensible, but only difficult for some to accept, . . .

If it isn't incomprehensible, why can you not explain and justify it?

Who profits from the eternal torment of nonbelievers? Can anyone answer that question?

Maybe no one else will, but I will. No one. As I stated above. But true it is.

If no one profits from it, how can it be justified?

Is God doing it just for the hell of it?

Is God sadistic?

Or is man simply ignorant?

Or is this belief simply another proof that the Bible is sealed from mankind's understanding?

============================================

I'm thinking it's ignorance and the sealed scriptures.

[tam]

Peace again to you,

Pinseeker, if you do see how annihilation can be understood from those passages ... then how can you also say, "Annihilation is not supported in any way by these passages; it is not in view in the least".

Because, Tammy, to say something can be understood in a certain way is not necessarily to say that understanding is correct or sound in any way.

I agree and never suggested otherwise. But you said annihilation was not in view in the least in those passages... and yet you can understand how people come to see annihilation in those passages.

So what about those passages makes you understand how people can 'come to' annihilation from them?

In the translation to English, we can lose the true import of what is actually being said in either the Hebrew (the Old Testament) or the Greek (the New Testament). And such is the case with understanding annihilation is any of the passages referenced (or anywhere else in the Bible).

It is not just the language - though you might want to consider your own advice here. There was no concept of hell (as a place of eternal torment) in Israel or in the OT. Sheol (hebrew) or Hades (greek) is simply the world of the dead. You know, the place Job longed to go in order to escape his suffering? Where people go (and "sleep", as Christ likened death to a sleep) to await the resurrection of the dead.

Extremely shallow? How so?

I think I've been very clear on that. For example, to understand fire in the Bible only in the concrete ("wooden") sense of something orange and yellow and really, really hot and causative of burning things up to the point of not existing anymore-- rather than a concrete image of and therefore representative of God's judgment in the sense that He is a "consuming fire" and as such the Righteous, holy Judge -- is... extremely shallow

We are given specific symbols or elements for a reason, Pinseeker. To help us to understand. We have been given physical examples to help us to understand spiritual realities. So that Sodom and Gomorrah are an example of what happens to those who suffer eternal punishment (eternal death; not eternal torment).



That is not shallow, Pinseeker. That is simple.


(And no one has suggested that God is not a consuming fire. Or that fire does not mean more than just the fire we get when we light a match. You are suggesting it means only that He is the Judge in this passage (and indeed He is the Judge), but you seem to be forgetting the fire that comes down from heaven and consumes 'gog and magog'; and the fire came down from heaven and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah; and the fire that came down and consumed the captains and guards going after Elijah in 2Kings. That was not symbolic of judgment; that was a real fire).

(in reference to the understanding, not the person; you get that I'm sure).

I do.

Are you perhaps confusing simple or straightforward with shallow?

Well no, because both are simple and straightforward in the sense you're talking about. Regardless whether or not you buy what I'm saying is the correct understanding of these passages, surely you can see it as resulting from a simple, straightforward reading of the text.

I do not. Not in the least.

To you, death does not mean death, it means life of eternal suffering.

To you, Satan being imprisoned in the Abyss (an actual place) to prevent him from deceiving the nations ... means... he is roaming free and he can still deceive the nations.

Because it seems to me that simple (even though truth is simple) is not enough for many people. Many do not want and do not trust simple. They instead want complex, mysterious, unknowable. Sometimes they trust (and desire) things they cannot even fully grasp over something that they can understand (that makes no sense to me). Perhaps some of that comes from the (erroneous) belief that we cannot know God (even though this is in contradiction to the words that Christ spoke: Matt 11:27; John 14:7).

In general, I agree with everything in this paragraph. However, I am interested now, based on what you said at the end, here in hearing how you would reconcile the passages you cited above (Matthew 11:27, John 14:7) with the following (among others):

• * "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." [God, via Isaiah, Isaiah 55:8-9]
  
  * "Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high; I cannot attain it." [David to God, Psalm 139:6]
  
  * "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 'For who has known the mind of the Lord...?' " [Romans 11:33-34]

In addition to these passages, with a good concordance, it might be somewhat astounding to you to do a word search on the word 'mystery' and read through what turns up...

Such passages would need to be understood in light of what Christ (the Truth) has said; His words come first. And perhaps it would help if you were to finish the quote from Romans:

“For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?�

Obviously we cannot instruct God (or His Son). And it continues:

But we have the mind of Christ.


And Christ is the image of God. He also said if we know Him, then we know His Father as well. That does not mean we can instruct the Father; He is instructing US (through His Son, who is our Teacher).



Thank you for your wish of peace, Pinseeker, and peace also to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[PinSeeker]

With all due respect, I'm breaking out of this time warp (Star Trek reference) we are in.

Good day to both of you. I wish upon you all God's blessings.

Grace and peace to all.

[Checkpoint]

With all due respect, I'm breaking out of this time warp (Star Trek reference) we are in.

Good day to both of you. I wish upon you all God's blessings.

Grace and peace to all.

I presume that means you are withdrawing from your

exchanges with both tam and myth-one on this thread?

If so, what about our exchange here?

Bless you.