Faith....in 'reverse'

[Menotu]

Most understand faith as it pertains to the belief in something. But can it also mean not having a belief in something?

People have faith that God is real, exists, etc. But can other have faith that God is not real, doesn't exist, etc?

Or is faith strictly a 'religious thing'? In other words, can you only have faith in a religious thing/item?

Can an atheist have faith in their belief that God doesn't exist?

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 17 by Tcg]

I implied nothing. You assume and you're taking things way to personally. Do not speak for me please.

Then perhaps I misunderstood you when you stated this:

There is plenty of evidence out there for faith in God and the Bible. Many dismiss it though because they want God to come down and talk to them face to face. Even then I am not sure that would be enough evidence to give an atheist cause to put faith in a creator. Atheist put their faith in themselves, their own knowledge and wisdom. I always think of flat-earthers, people that think the world is flat. They think this way because they only accept evidence that proves what they believe in.

My summation, which you object to, was this:

• "You implied that atheists would reject God even if God revealed himself."

If your statement was not meant to convey my summation, please correct my misunderstanding.

Please also explain how your experience as an atheist could lead you to conclude about all atheists that: "They think this way because they only accept evidence that proves what they believe in."

How could you possibly know how all atheists think?

What evidence can you provide to support this assertion?


Tcg

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 21 by Tcg]

You missed this, "Even then I am not sure that would be enough evidence to give an atheist cause to put faith in a creator."

Maybe for some it would be enough.

Another reason your assumption is misplaced is be I used to be an atheist. So a person that identifies themselves as an atheist can and do change their minds. So how can I possibly even imply that all atheists would reject God even if God revealed Himself, when me as a former atheist did change his faith?

Or are you going to pull what evangelicals say about people that are no longer identify as Christian? They say, "they were never really Christian" are you next going to say, "I was never really an atheist"?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 21 by Tcg]

You missed this, "Even then I am not sure that would be enough evidence to give an atheist cause to put faith in a creator."

Maybe for some it would be enough.

Another reason your assumption is misplaced is be I used to be an atheist. So a person that identifies themselves as an atheist can and do change their minds. So how can I possibly even imply that all atheists would reject God even if God revealed Himself, when me as a former atheist did change his faith?

Or are you going to pull what evangelicals say about people that are no longer identify as Christian? They say, "they were never really Christian" are you next going to say, "I was never really an atheist"?

I note with interest you were once an atheist.

What was it that brought about your change from that to faith in God?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 21 by Tcg]

You missed this, "Even then I am not sure that would be enough evidence to give an atheist cause to put faith in a creator."

Maybe for some it would be enough.

Another reason your assumption is misplaced is be I used to be an atheist. So a person that identifies themselves as an atheist can and do change their minds. So how can I possibly even imply that all atheists would reject God even if God revealed Himself, when me as a former atheist did change his faith?

Or are you going to pull what evangelicals say about people that are no longer identify as Christian? They say, "they were never really Christian" are you next going to say, "I was never really an atheist"?

I note with interest you were once an atheist.

What was it that brought about your change from that to faith in God?

For me, that path started with humility. To dump the idea that truth depends on what I decide is truth. That truth is not dependent on me. This led to investigating everything I had every learned all over again from a highly objective view point.

This led me to one point that I can't get past as far as a creator. If I was going to honest with myself, I couldn't ignore one simple fact. A living thing has only ever come from another living thing. Never has it been observed that anything living come from non-living material without external help. Then I learned the odds of even a strand of DNA coming from lifeless material was so high that after a number reaches a certain number scientist just call it impossible. I had to accept that something with a brain made DNA. When the only logical option is that there is a creator for this universe and everything in it, I went on a search to find that creator.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 21 by Tcg]

You missed this, "Even then I am not sure that would be enough evidence to give an atheist cause to put faith in a creator."

Maybe for some it would be enough.

Another reason your assumption is misplaced is be I used to be an atheist. So a person that identifies themselves as an atheist can and do change their minds. So how can I possibly even imply that all atheists would reject God even if God revealed Himself, when me as a former atheist did change his faith?

Or are you going to pull what evangelicals say about people that are no longer identify as Christian? They say, "they were never really Christian" are you next going to say, "I was never really an atheist"?

I note with interest you were once an atheist.

What was it that brought about your change from that to faith in God?

For me, that path started with humility. To dump the idea that truth depends on what I decide is truth. That truth is not dependent on me. This led to investigating everything I had every learned all over again from a highly objective view point.

This led me to one point that I can't get past as far as a creator. If I was going to honest with myself, I couldn't ignore one simple fact. A living thing has only ever come from another living thing. Never has it been observed that anything living come from non-living material without external help. Then I learned the odds of even a strand of DNA coming from lifeless material was so high that after a number reaches a certain number scientist just call it impossible. I had to accept that something with a brain made DNA. When the only logical option is that there is a creator for this universe and everything in it, I went on a search to find that creator.

Thanks for that.

So, where did you go, and how did your search enable you, to find that creator?

Before all this happened, you were an atheist. Why were you then an atheist?

[2timothy316]

So, where did you go, and how did your search enable you, to find that creator?

I started off somewhat lazy in looking. I didn't feel any urgency to find out who the creator was or what they wanted. So I did a lot of passive research. A few books, talked to many people about their ideas and examined just about all types of religions. Everything from Mormon to Scientology. Buddhism to Shintoism. They were all so different but they did have some things in common. But in the end I didn't see that they had any evidence to show. They just seemed like busy work to me to make people feel like they were doing something. There was no evidence that the creator needed them to do anything they were doing.

Then one evening I realized I was spinning my wheels getting nowhere fast. I remember this so clearly like it happened a week ago but it was almost 8 years ago. I was sitting outside smoking a cigarette. I started thinking about my life. I had accomplished quite a bit in my life. Good job, great wife and that year I received my pilot's license. I should have been on top of the world in my accomplishments. Yet I thought when I die, none of this matters. My wife will grow old and die. Either she will watch me die or I will watch her die. This thought saddened me to tears. That is when for the first time...and I do not mind saying that as I type this at work I'm hoping no one is seeing the tears building up in my eyes...but for the first time in a long time, I prayed.

I prayed about how I didn't want my life to mean nothing. I prayed how my wonderful wife deserves to live. And I asked, what do I need to do?

Now, my search became much more urgent. I figured I'd start by studying the Bible. I was raised JW so I figured I'd start there and when they disappointed me, as I thought they eventually would. I'd go to the next religion. This is when I learned something very important. As I was studying the Bible and trying to throw my study conductor as many curve-ball questions as I could I realized, religion has little to do with finding the Creator and the Bible is definitely the key.

Before all this happened, you were an atheist. Why were you then an atheist?

I listened to people that seemed to make a lot of sense. Religions were judgey and close-minded. Harsh. Those that didn't believe in God where much more accepting and seemed more open-minded. They made points like if there was a God then they don't care about us, we are on our own. The reasoning was as mankind, "we got ourselves into these messes, we can get ourselves out. We can't wait for someone we can't even be sure doesn't even exist." I was young and wanted to do my own thing. I had never seen any face in the clouds or evidence of any kind of miracle. I had watched as bad things happened to people that claim to be servants of God. I had also watch people that claimed to be servants of God do unspeakable things. So atheism seemed like the logical way to go. They had a better moral code than some that claimed to be God's servants. My atheist friends were pointing out that religions are just a bunch people who really didn't know what they were doing. If God was behind their religion then shouldn't these people act good?!

This is the nutshell of why I decided on atheism. it seemed to have the better answers. Then I found out how hollow those answers actually are. The word plausible got throw around a lot in my atheist circles. If it was plausible then it was just accepted as it happened that plausible way. Even though the chance a DNA strain assembled by itself are 4^300. Which is a number so large you'd have to write on just about every atom in the known universe to write down that number. That's just for the DNA strand. That doesn't account for a cell, cells coming together to form a system. Then a planet that has the perfect distance from a start, the perfect size moon, perfect tilt and has liquid water and that is where this 4^300 chance DNA strain just happened to appear? Yeah, they call this plausible. I don't know the chances of all of these things coming together, I don't know if anyone has even tried to put a number to all of these things happening just right.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 20 by 2timothy316]

Not true. My evidence comes from the things around me, like the Earth. Is the Earth existing not a fact to you? Do you think that the Earth is actually not here?

The existence of Earth is not evidence for the existence of any gods.

Do you think the Earth is flat or a sphere? Can you prove to me that the Earth is here and whether it's flat or a sphere? Can you build my faith in these teachings.

One can easily find compelling evidence for the shape of Earth. No one needs to rely on faith, just education.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 26 by 2timothy316]

I was raised JW....

How does that square with your claim that you were once an atheist?

Edit: You sort of answered that later in your post but it seems more like you were simply being dissatisfied with God rather than not believing he actually existed.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 27 by brunumb]

That is your choice. See it how you like. Yet the existence of the Earth doesn't prove there is no creator. What it does prove is that everyday a new life starts on in this universe and it has always come from another living being. There are no records, witnesses or videos of it happening any other way.

On a side note, let me know when you have recorded life coming from lifeless materials without the intervention of an intelligent being. Also let me know if you record strand of DNA pops up with no intelligent intervention. I await that time-lapse video. Until then there is no reason for me to change my choice.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 26 by 2timothy316]

I was raised JW....

How does that square with your claim that you were once an atheist?

People are not born atheist or theist. Some say that those that were once Christian but now atheist were never actually Christian. Are you saying that since atheism didn't stick with me that I was never actually atheist?

Edit: You sort of answered that later in your post but it seems more like you were simply being dissatisfied with God rather than not believing he actually existed.

I was dissatisfied with what I was presented as evidence there was a God. My believe in a God simply went away. He was not more real to me than Santa.