Faith....in 'reverse'

[Menotu]

Most understand faith as it pertains to the belief in something. But can it also mean not having a belief in something?

People have faith that God is real, exists, etc. But can other have faith that God is not real, doesn't exist, etc?

Or is faith strictly a 'religious thing'? In other words, can you only have faith in a religious thing/item?

Can an atheist have faith in their belief that God doesn't exist?

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 29 by 2timothy316]

On a side note, let me know when you have recorded life coming from lifeless materials without the intervention of an intelligent being. Also let me know if you record strand of DNA pops up with no intelligent intervention.

All life ultimately comes from so-called lifeless materials. Plants use water, carbon dioxide and energy from the sun to make glucose and oxygen. This, together with minerals from the soil becomes amino acids, fats, carbohydrates and subsequently more complex molecules. No intelligence in sight.

We don't know how the first living organisms originated, but after that, life coming from life is just the process we call reproduction. Our knowledge of how the first self-replicating molecules formed is growing every day. Only 160 years ago we knew nothing about DNA. It is not inconceivable that in the next 160 years we will find an answer to how it arose. Like all other phenomena that were once attributed to gods, DNA will also probably have a purely natural explanation.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 29 by 2timothy316]

On a side note, let me know when you have recorded life coming from lifeless materials without the intervention of an intelligent being. Also let me know if you record strand of DNA pops up with no intelligent intervention.

All life ultimately comes from so-called lifeless materials. Plants use water, carbon dioxide and energy from the sun to make glucose and oxygen. This, together with minerals from the soil becomes amino acids, fats, carbohydrates and subsequently more complex molecules. No intelligence in sight.

We don't know how the first living organisms originated, but after that, life coming from life is just the process we call reproduction. Our knowledge of how the first self-replicating molecules formed is growing every day. Only 160 years ago we knew nothing about DNA. It is not inconceivable that in the next 160 years we will find an answer to how it arose. Like all other phenomena that were once attributed to gods, DNA will also probably have a purely natural explanation.

Ah yes these are the empty speeches I remember.

Empty promises without proof. 'We will find an answer" is delusional answer I used to give myself for decades.

I'll be here if you ever present actual proof of something living coming from something non living without outside intervention. Until then I have no reason to trust (put faith) the idea that something living can come from something non-living without outside assistance. I see no evidence that is happening now or that it ever did. I watched countless people try experiments trying to get something living to come from something non-living without intervening, all were failures. They have tried to reproduce what the Earth was like millions of years ago. Put some amino acids in some water and waited...nothing happened. No RNA was produced.

Fred Hoyal, English astronomer and cosmologist wrote,

"The trouble is that there are about two thousand enzymes, and the chance of obtaining them all in a random trial is only one part in (10^20)^2,000 = 10^40,000, an outrageously small probability that could not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup."

Do you listen to your own scientist? When I was an atheist, I'd pay this guy no attention. I'd attack his character or something like that. But I'd have no real mathematical answer to his findings. Yet now, I think he was on to something. It's statements like these that improve my faith there is a Creator because the chances are so outrageously high, that leaves only one other answer. Someone created DNA. Evidence is key to faith, and DNA starting accidentally has zero evidence. But DNA coming from something intelligent, there is plenty evidence of that. The DNA that is in an embryo that is made by another living thing happens everyday. Do you how many times a day a DNA is made in a pool of amino acids? Zero!

When I was an atheist I'd boost how I would only accept things I could see. Yet I was lying to myself. I could see that pools of water and amino acids were not spiting out new life everyday but wouldn't acknowledge that. Noooooo that would put my faith my ideas in danger.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 29 by 2timothy316]

On a side note, let me know when you have recorded life coming from lifeless materials without the intervention of an intelligent being. Also let me know if you record strand of DNA pops up with no intelligent intervention.

All life ultimately comes from so-called lifeless materials.

I'm not denying this. Yet the evidence for my faith is not based what was used to create life but that there was someone to take these lifeless materials and make a living thing out of them. The evidence of my faith in a creator is that we have only ever seen something intelligent make something living from something non-living. If I saw life springing up from non-living materials all the time, then my faith would be different. But we don't so, there we go.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 32 by 2timothy316]

Ah yes these are the empty speeches I remember.

Empty promises without proof. 'We will find an answer" is delusional answer I used to give myself for decades.

That comment exactly echoes what we get from preachers and allegedly holy books. Science proceeds in leaps and bounds revealing more and more about the universe and world we live in. Religion stagnates in ancient stories that are vainly propped up by the indoctrinated faithful telling us that they have all the answers.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 32 by 2timothy316]

Fred Hoyal, English astronomer and cosmologist wrote,

"The trouble is that there are about two thousand enzymes, and the chance of obtaining them all in a random trial is only one part in (10^20)^2,000 = 10^40,000, an outrageously small probability that could not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup."

Fred Hoyle was wrong. It happens. There is no suggestion that all of those enzymes formed at the same time or even had to form at the same time. Hoyle may have been mathematically correct, but his premise was not.

Are you happy to agree with everything else Hoyle had to say?

In his later years, Hoyle became a staunch critic of theories of abiogenesis to explain the origin of life on Earth. With Chandra Wickramasinghe, Hoyle promoted the hypothesis that the first life on Earth began in space, spreading through the universe via panspermia, and that evolution on Earth is influenced by a steady influx of viruses arriving via comets.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 32 by 2timothy316]

Fred Hoyal, English astronomer and cosmologist wrote,

"The trouble is that there are about two thousand enzymes, and the chance of obtaining them all in a random trial is only one part in (10^20)^2,000 = 10^40,000, an outrageously small probability that could not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup."

Fred Hoyle was wrong. It happens. There is no suggestion that all of those enzymes formed at the same time or even had to form at the same time. Hoyle may have been mathematically correct, but his premise was not.

The premise does not impose all the enzymes necessary for life formed at the same time, only that in whatever sequence they came into existence, those necessary for life were eventually "obtained" through a random process.





Here is an excellent presentation by a molecular scientist on the subject (he deals with this topic about the 10"30s min mark)

[youtube][/youtube]




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[brunumb]

[Replying to post 36 by JehovahsWitness]

The premise does not impose all the enzymes necessary for life formed at the same time, only that in whatever sequence they came into existence, those necessary for life were eventually "obtained" through a random process.

Nope. His calculation is only relevant to all of them being formed independently and effectively together. The implication is that an organism cannot function without all of them being present.

Edit: The video clip was simply nonsense spouted out to the uncritical, unknowing, gullible believers.

[JehovahsWitness]

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Edit: The video clip was simply nonsense spouted out to the uncritical, unknowing, gullible believers.

Really, perhaps you can quote some examples of the "nonsense" you identidied in the video presentation and explain why you deems it so?



JW

[brunumb]

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Edit: The video clip was simply nonsense spouted out to the uncritical, unknowing, gullible believers.

Really, perhaps you can quote some examples of the "nonsense" you identidied in the video presentation and explain why you deems it so?



JW

Waste of time as it is usually just water off a duck's back with those whose beliefs make them non-receptive to the truth. Let me just say that I am fully qualified in the appropriate sciences to make the judgement in my post.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 26 by 2timothy316]

Now, my search became much more urgent. I figured I'd start by studying the Bible. I was raised JW so I figured I'd start there and when they disappointed me, as I thought they eventually would. I'd go to the next religion. This is when I learned something very important. As I was studying the Bible and trying to throw my study conductor as many curve-ball questions as I could I realized, religion has little to do with finding the Creator and the Bible is definitely the key.

We all have our own story, and I have loved reading something of your one. Thank you.

You were raised a JW and your search led you to return, and that is where you are today, with them?

May you enjoy God's blessings as you continue your life journey.