"Protecting abortion access is a Catholic Value"

[Elijah John]

I just saw a protesters sign reading:

Protecting abortion access is a Catholic value".

Really? How so?

Is that the official policy of the RCC now? Prove it.

Sounds to me this is more of a case of false witness or scandal. Wishful thinking at best.

Should the holder of this sign be excommunicated? Or are they automatically excommunicated?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

I have heard that the RCC holds companies that make condoms, and other contraceptives, and I wouldn't be surprised if I found out that they also have interests in abortions.

Are you sure your orgainzation's anti-Catholic bias is not coloring your statement here? Can't you even give the RCC a little bit of credit for a position your organization shares with them, namely the pro-life position?

Without verifiable examples, I request that you retract your unfounded accusation.

I have found that information in books that I have read. JWs have an "anti-Catholic bias" only because we have understood what they believe and it doesn't correspond with what the Bible says. We also know it's history and all the terrible things it is responsible for. All you have to do is pay attention to (1) history, and (2) what's going on today.

The fact of the Church dabbling in contraceptives:

"Early in 1968, Italian reporters uncovered evidence that the Vatican had invested in Istituto Farmacologico Serono, a pharmaceutical company that made birth control pills, as well as Udine, a military weapons manufacturer....The same year Paul VI issued Humanae Vitae, his most controversial encyclical, in which he banned all artificial birth control." (God's Bankers/ A History of Money and Power At the Vatican, by Gerald Posner, 2015, p.185)


Do I have to retract anything?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 16 by Elijah John]

You say that "anyone is free to leave the RCC at any time." It depends on what you mean by "leave." If one is excommunicated, wouldn't that person be stripped of certain privileges within the church? I imagine that many Catholics would not admit to anything of excommunication value, so they could stay in the church as a Catholic of good standing. If they "left," or resigned, wouldn't they actually be snubbed by Catholics to some extent? It isn't a whole lot different than the "cults," as you call them.

There are not many excommunicated people out there. The RCC doesn't do that very much, even to people who are proved to be totally evil. Adolf Hitler was never excommunicated! So I guess evil-doers can remain stand-up Catholics for all time.


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[sleepyhead]

[Replying to post 21 by onewithhim]

Hello,
I spent some time in a Catholic forum. Occasionally someone will come online wanting to become non catholic but found out they couldn't. The Catholic reasoning was after someone is Baptized there isn't a way to unbaptize them. They also don't keep a written list of members so they can't erase anyone from their membership list.

[Menotu]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]


I've always found the idea of excommunicating someone from a church, in today's world, odd and funny.
Seems like a ban from Disney World would be more stressful than from a religion.
Just pick another one that works with your lifestyle. It's not like you're genetically linked to one church/religion

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]


I've always found the idea of excommunicating someone from a church, in today's world, odd and funny.
Seems like a ban from Disney World would be more stressful than from a religion.
Just pick another one that works with your lifestyle. It's not like you're genetically linked to one church/religion

You have an interesting point there. I have often wondered also why, for instance, people object so strenuously to being disfellowshipped/ excommunicated from JWs' organization when they can just go somewhere else where their sins will be tolerated.



.

[Tcg]

I have often wondered also why, for instance, people object so strenuously to being disfellowshipped/ excommunicated from JWs' organization when they can just go somewhere else where their sins will be tolerated.

Or they could just stay in the JW's organization where their sins will be covered up and ignored:

• Secret Documents Reveal Sex Abuse Scandal in Jehovah's Witnesses Church
  
  Nevertheless, the church leaders opted not to take action immediately because one of the accusers did not want to face her father and make a formal complaint, an action required by the church's judicial committee. An in-church trial was eventually held years later, which resulted in the temporary and brief excommunication of the father.
  
  The documents reveal that church leaders pressured the accuser and her husband not to report the abuse to secular law enforcement officials. Police had questioned the accused man, but official charges were never brought against him.
  
  The same man was also accused of raping another young woman who was not a relative. The church documents reveal that church elders doubted the woman's credibility because she said her eyes were closed during the assault.
  
  https://www.newsweek.com/secret-documen ... aks-776796

Tcg

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 25 by Tcg]

One event here and there? Uncorroborated for a period of time? The brothers are following the Bible's counsel. A person is not guilty until two or three witnesses can attest to a matter. It is important, especially in the case of someone who is actually innocent of the accusations.

If a woman says that her eyes were closed during an incident and cannot say for sure who it was, how can a man be held accountable? That is ridiculous!

[MarysSon]

[Replying to post 16 by Elijah John]

You say that "anyone is free to leave the RCC at any time." It depends on what you mean by "leave." If one is excommunicated, wouldn't that person be stripped of certain privileges within the church? I imagine that many Catholics would not admit to anything of excommunication value, so they could stay in the church as a Catholic of good standing. If they "left," or resigned, wouldn't they actually be snubbed by Catholics to some extent? It isn't a whole lot different than the "cults," as you call them.

There are not many excommunicated people out there. The RCC doesn't do that very much, even to people who are proved to be totally evil. Adolf Hitler was never excommunicated! So I guess evil-doers can remain stand-up Catholics for all time..

Actually - most of your post is false.

Most people who are excommunicated are ipso facto excommunicated by their actions. In other words - they are self-excommunicated.
The Church very rarely goes around officially excommunicating people. It's very difficult to police the behavior of hundreds of millions of individuals. That's what all of the anathemas were about.

As for Hitler - he stopped being a Catholic LONG before his rise to power and excommunicated himself by his behavior.

[MarysSon]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

I have heard that the RCC holds companies that make condoms, and other contraceptives, and I wouldn't be surprised if I found out that they also have interests in abortions. They speak one way and do another. What was it that Jesus said about the Pharisees?--Do what they say, but not as they do! (Matthew 23:3)

And I doubt if they would excommunicate that sign-holder. It would bring too much attention onto their dark deeds. And excommunication is never automatic. Hitler was never excommunicated, for example. Neither were Goebbels, Goering, Mengele, or any of the other Catholic Nazis..

This is absolute nonsense.

For one thing - the onus is on YOU to prove your claims about the Catholic Church having financial holdings in condom companies and abortion mills.

The Catholic Church led the charge in the fight against abortion before ANY Protestant sect. That's simply a fact of history. For YOU to have us believe that the Church is fighting on BOTH sides is preposterous.
In other words - PROVE it . . .

As for your incorrect views on excommunication - MOST people who are excommunicated - excommunicate themselves by their behavior in what is called ipso facto excommunication. This is what the Nazis incurred.

THIS is the reason for all of the anathemas at the Council of Trent.
It would be impossible for the Church to police the behaviors of hundreds of millions of individuals. Hence, the anathemas.

I eagerly await your documented proof about the Catholic Church being involved in the abortion and condom trades . . .