Should Christ have done more?

[marco]

In many ways Christ is an embarrassment. I was thinking that if he were around in the present pandemic he would have done absolutely nothing about it. Instead of thundering on the earthly scene with challenges for Rome and large-scale improvements in man's way of living, he helped John smith with his sore ear and Mary Jane with her eye trouble. He had a kind of pop festival where he sang to the crowds and gave them free food for listening. Given the chance to show the world his divine passport he said, presumably to a grin from Pilate, "I have some private soldiers waiting in the sky, so watch out."

He's muddle- headed - "I'll die and come back with a knife, sitting on a cloud." What for? Had he said - "maybe in 2000 years time" his listeners would have laughed.

So - what is Christ's great legacy? The stuff we have is the Christmas wrapping paper of the Church - nothing inside it.

Is Christ a small man magnified by the Church?

If he really was divine, why did he not perform on a bigger stage instead of, say, catching lots of fish and saying they came from God?

[marco]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]


The picture we have is of a strange Jewish man who immersed himself, probably detrimentally, in Scripture, treating old prophets like pop-heroes. He didn't seem to have any other interests. He emerges from apparent isolation, at thirty, and befriends simple fishermen. He doesn't or cannot write, nor could Muhammad. For a man on a mission he left everything to chance - never seeing anything that was written about him.

So the Christ we have is not the disturbed guy with much scriptural knowledge and little else. We have a halo- ringed demi-god, risen from the ashes like a phoenix. But even in his resurrection there are pathetic, almost silly details: he folds his clothes up neatly and walks off naked somewhere, leaving a message with an angel. As if!

The best we can say is the whole thing is an embarrassment. Jesus did nothing - others did it for him.

[otseng]

So - what is Christ's great legacy? The stuff we have is the Christmas wrapping paper of the Church - nothing inside it.

You have severely underestimated what Christ has done. As a matter of fact, I can't think of any single man in the history of the world that has had as much impact on civilization. But, I also realize it's all considered foolishness by the skeptics.

1Co 1:23 KJV - But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

As for what would Christ do if he was here now, probably the same as when he was here 2000 years ago. He would preach and call people to follow him. He would minister to the down-trodden and the rejected. He would confront the sin in this world and call people to repentance.

[Zzyzx]

.

You have severely underestimated what Christ has done. As a matter of fact, I can't think of any single man in the history of the world that has had as much impact on civilization.

An alternative view: The Jesus character portrayed in the Gospels seems to have been a wandering Jewish preacher who had little effect in his time (and was run out of his own hometown as a fraud). He did not convince Jews that he was their messiah. He died as a common criminal.

However, after he was long dead, Paul/Saul and cohorts deified him and made him the icon for a new religion by claiming that he had been 'resurrected' and 'would return'. Those claims were rejected by Jews (but were eventually accepted among Gentiles far from the area where Jesus lived and preached). His home area is still Jewish rather than Christian.

It appears as though 'Christianity' is far more a reflection of Paul/Saul and cohorts than Jesus. They portrayed him to be what fit their new religion (but burdened themselves with the Jewish Bible, perhaps to gain an appearance of authenticity).

What did Jesus do? Preach to a relatively few people in a limited area for a short time.

What did Paul/Saul and cohorts do? Form a new religion that surpassed Judaism and popularized their icon – first to the Roman empire, then elsewhere in the world.

Thus, the credit for 'impact on civilization' seems to accrue to Paul/Saul and company rather than Jesus. Perhaps 'Paulinity' would be a more accurate name.

[marco]

You have severely underestimated what Christ has done. As a matter of fact, I can't think of any single man in the history of the world that has had as much impact on civilization. But, I also realize it's all considered foolishness by the skeptics.

I am aware of what has been done with Christ. In reality he did nothing publicly for thirty years and then apparently went on a type of lecture tour, addressing himself to the untaught crowds while disparaging those with religious authority. What has emerged is a distillation of rumour and quotation. The operative force has been church publicity and Roman might with a later contribution from pious Spain. I accept that the name of Jesus has been universally publicised but the celebrations in his name are not his.

1Co 1:23 KJV - But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

It was from the Jews that Jesus got his trainees, so presumably the apostles didn't stumble. We respect the Greeks in other areas - I don't see why we should withhold respect here. The initial foolishness was dogmatized into an article of faith so that folly became wisdom. I don't think Jesus had anything to do with this particular change.

As for what would Christ do if he was here now, probably the same as when he was here 2000 years ago. He would preach and call people to follow him. He would minister to the down-trodden and the rejected. He would confront the sin in this world and call people to repentance.

What I meant was: would he watch people die? Preaching during a plague would be odd. His ministrations seem to have been for a beggar here, a blind soul there, and some afflicted lunatic on the corner. I cannot believe the 30-year old would have done much other than give a few words of comfort. We can all of us ask murderers to stop murdering, as Christ did, but the world has largely kept its quota of sinners. Christ made little difference. I haven't read of a vast congregation of cripples and deaf and dumb people cured under the waving arms of Christ. The way the story goes is that he was moving from speech to speech and some sick person came in view as a cue for drama and histrionics. It sounds like a fabricated story though I accept somebody calling himself Anointed Saviour was around at the time. What a waste of a god, if he was one.

[1213]

Should Christ have done more?

Again, why ask opinions, when they don’t matter here?

I think Jesus did great things by teaching what is said in the Bible. In Biblical point of view this “life� is only a temporary lesson, not meant to last forever. The focus is on higher matters. In Biblical point of view, it would be stupid to be obsessed with material world.

[Zzyzx]

.

Should Christ have done more?

Again, why ask opinions, when they don’t matter here?

A credible debater provides verifiable evidence to support their position -- not merely repeat "I think" or "I believe".

Opinions and beliefs that are not supported by evidence that anyone concerned can verify are worth nothing in debate (though they may be revered in church).

Those who attempt to support their opinions and beliefs by quoting the Bible are in violation of C&A subforum guidelines that specify that the Bible is not considered authoritative. Of course, some who 'debate' are not concerned with credibility -- but with championing a cause.

[Diagoras]

I think Jesus did great things by teaching what is said in the Bible.

We have good evidence that the Bible is an eclectic conglomeration of writings, and that the later half of the modern ‘book’ was written well after the character Jesus allegedly lived.

I’m assuming that you mean, “There are stories in the Bible about Jesus teaching great things�, which would be a true statement about the contents of a book, which anyone can verify. However, it’s possible to read your words as if Jesus actually had a copy of the Bible and was using it as a textbook as he preached. That would clearly be impossible.

Stories as evidence aren’t particularly compelling. And opinions of stories - even less so.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

WAS CHRIST MUDDLEHEADED?

Many an infidel have assessed him so but does the bible narrative really present Jesus as a "muddle headed" Messiah?

MUDDLE HEADED

mentally disorganized or confused, inept, incompetent, clumsily awkward

The Jesus of the bible is invariably presented as eloquent, intelligent and skillful in both his rhetoric and reasoning. Evidently having not attended the rabonical schools of higher education his opponents where astonished at his knowledge of scripture and failed to better him in any debate. Crowds are said to have flocked to him not just to benefit from his spectacular miracles but to listen to his winsome words.

LUKE 4:22

And they all began to give favorable witness about him and to be amazed at the gracious words coming out of his mouth, and they were saying: “This is a son of Joseph, is it not?�

MATTHEW 7:28, 29

When Jesus finished these sayings, the effect was that the crowds were astounded at his way of teaching, for he was teaching them as a person having authority, and not as their scribes.

Further Jesus handled himself with great dignity, under the most trying circumstances, he is depicted as being at ease conversing with women, working class locals as well as rulers, goverment officials and even the govenor Pilate himself. Whether one believes Jesus Messianic claims or not, to suggest that the Jesus of the bible is presented as clumsy, inept or confused is without doubt a gross misrepresentation of the text and perhaps says more about the reader than Jesus himself.





JW



RELATED POSTS

Is it true Jesus never said anything useful?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 079#952079

Did Jesus really say nothing even slightly "philosophical"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 101#952101

Are claims Jesus showed no interest in the animal kingdom correct?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 068#952068

[Elijah John]

So - what is Christ's great legacy? The stuff we have is the Christmas wrapping paper of the Church - nothing inside it.

You have severely underestimated what Christ has done. As a matter of fact, I can't think of any single man in the history of the world that has had as much impact on civilization. But, I also realize it's all considered foolishness by the skeptics.

1Co 1:23 KJV - But we preach Christ crucified,[/bp unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

As for what would Christ do if he was here now, probably the same as when he was here 2000 years ago. He would preach and call people to follow him. He would minister to the down-trodden and the rejected. He would confront the sin in this world and call people to repentance.

The bolded part of the quote is evidence (as Z points out) that it was Paul, not Jesus who advanced Christianity and made it an extremely influential religion. In a cultural sense if not in actuality in the transformation of individuals.

After all, Yahshua of Nazareth did not preach "Christ and me (him) crucified". No, the real Jesus preached repentance and the Father's mercy. That and the impending (thought to be impending at that time) Kingdom of God.

Jesus was a would be reformer of Judaism, but had little influence on his native religion. No more than any other Rabbi of the time. And he was an apocalyptic prophet, who it seems, was wrong about the timing of the Apocalypse. (Matthew 16.28 etc.)

But he did set the stage for Paul, in making Jewish flavored ethical monotheism more universal,