Myth, Fable or Imagination

[Willum]

So I am having trouble with the elementary.

If God is all powerful, omnipresent, and in short, the most profound thing in the universe, even the world, it should be trivially easy to quantitatively and definitively distinguish It from myth, fable or the imagination.

So that is the challenge really.

Can anyone show anything to quantitatively distinguish God from myth, fable, imagination or in other words, zero as in nothing?

And if It is indistinguishable, it must be identical, no?

[Purple Knight]

Music is obviously real, as is sound, but how do you clearly distinguish between music and sound.

You don't, because music is subjective in the way you're using it. (The objective use would be sheet music; that is objectively music though depending on what is written it might not sound good.)

If you're drawing a parallel between subjective analysis of sound as music and the reality of God, you're describing an understanding of God as the perception that the universe is beautiful.

Not that you're the first, or that I disagree (Spinoza and Einstein would agree with this too) but this is technically atheist, or at very least 90% atheist, which is why Spinoza's fellow Jews understood Spinoza as basically atheist; a worshiper of the universe itself, not some actual specific entity that bellows specific commands at people.

You won't catch me claiming that the universe doesn't exist (well, okay, you might, but that's... lol... neither here nor there) or that it's not beautiful music, or even that we shouldn't worship it.

You will catch me claiming that omnipotent mega-entities like the one described in the Bible as God are immensely unlikely and that that entity probably doesn't exist.

I'm not trying to be mean but this is pretty much exactly what Willum said you (as a believer in God, perhaps not you specifically) would do. If I understand the matter correctly, you've made God so vague and nebulous that no one could even make a proper start sorting your claims from fantasy.

I'm going back to my newly discovered animal because the field of biology wouldn't be having any of this. My animal is like music? Perhaps not objectively definable? A vague claim, perhaps, that a biome is itself a new animal? I'd be laughed out of science, and rightly so, even despite that certain biomes may actually behave this way a la Avatar. That's because I have to know what the heck I'm even claiming. I have to reduce it to something objective that can be falsified. I have to tell you the nuts and bolts of it, not just vaguely tell you it's a little bit like Avatar.

[Thomas123]

[Replying to Purple Knight]
Purple Knight
You will catch me claiming that omnipotent mega-entities like the one described in the Bible as God are immensely unlikely and that that entity probably doesn't exist.

Isn't to logical that they probably do. If we stay with sound and music for a little bit, then perhaps you will offer opinion on my thoughts. Mozart's Requiem is acknowledged as extremely beautiful music, the Blue Danube is soothing, the Charge of the Light Brigade is exciting, the score for Jaws, Psycho, etc is menacing.we have melancholy, despair, horrors so forth. These real creations use the given facility of sound to express exact experiences that could not be more real.
There is an ugly side to my God Yahweh. I know it is there because it has been consistently alluded to over millenia. Yahweh resists competition, Yahweh is demanding, there is failure in my God.People have articulated these traits with sincere attempts to explain them. Yahweh is not nice or any human approximate of same. Yahweh is the tough love of our creation in its entirety. Please dissect my analogous journey here , Purple Knight.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 20 by Thomas Mc Donald]

No, I did not say that.
I am having no trouble distinguishing between music and sound in this context, as they both exist.

I think the trouble you are having is the perception.

Sound may be perceived as music.
Noise may be perceived as music.
Fantasy, may also be perceived.

The difference is, sound and music are real and measurable, regardless of perception.
Fantasy, and - although we have not concluded this, we have seen no contrary evidence, fantasy and God are not real or measurable into an of themselves.

Confusing the subject has not allowed us to distinguish God from fantasy or imagination, it has only allowed us to show perceptions of fantasy can have the same effects as real things, such as music.

In other worse, the side-trip you took, did not advance your path.

[Purple Knight]

Isn't to logical that they probably do. If we stay with sound and music for a little bit, then perhaps you will offer opinion on my thoughts. Mozart's Requiem is acknowledged as extremely beautiful music, the Blue Danube is soothing, the Charge of the Light Brigade is exciting, the score for Jaws, Psycho, etc is menacing.we have melancholy, despair, horrors so forth. These real creations use the given facility of sound to express exact experiences that could not be more real.

While true, this is all still very subjective and nebulous. They may also build somewhat upon shared experiences. The shark's theme from Jaws is perhaps so menacing because it is a cultural phenomenon.

Even if you've never seen Jaws (I haven't), you hear that low, simplistic, building theme and you recognise that the shark is coming. You recognise that because that theme has been played a thousand times to exemplify just that. In a way, it's a word, and you learned it as you learned a word.

But it doesn't just mean the shark is coming. The shark can be anything that is coming, from a stalking cat in this shaded half-jest about it being a tiny little predator that can't kill you but at some level believes it can, to a legitimate threat. It can be something that is looming. This one musical word is tangled with a plethora of meaning, but we both understand it because we share this story.

Now imagine you're an anthropologist studying some Star Trek aliens who only have these sorts of tangled-up, loaded musical words and it's slow going because the universal translator is, for all its hype, just a dumb computer, and it can't understand these peoples' language.

Will they have that exact meaning for the Jaws theme? Probably not. It might be similar, or they might have a similar musical phrase that means something vaguely alike, but they won't know the shark is coming from you humming that phrase, even though I would. What I'm getting at is... a lot of it is cultural. More than you think, perhaps.

You have this same shared experience with other religious people, especially those from your sect. They know the same words; they share the same stories. In a way, stories are words too (there actually was a Star Trek race that used the names and places out of their stories like words, and everyone but me said it was implausible).

When you and someone else from your religious sect are sharing words in this way, it's hard to get out of that mindset and realise that somebody else might not speak your language. But you have to, if you're that anthropologist trying to learn a new language.

So you have this word God. To me, you're speaking Tamarian. That one word is all your stories and emotions rolled up into one. That guy gets it, because he shares stories with you. I don't. I learned many of those stories, but only later in life. They're not the same to me as they are to you. I didn't grow up on them. My emotions aren't rolled into them like a gummi worm into a fruit roll-up scroll. You have this piece of candy that's basic to you, because you never had these treats individually, but I'd have to dissect it to understand it.

That's why you have to pick out what it is you mean, and quantify it. Explain to me the Jaws theme when I've never heard it before. Maybe I don't even know what music is.

It's a tall order, and it requires both parties to help build that bridge, but it is actually required to have any meaningful discussion whatsoever.

There is an ugly side to my God Yahweh. I know it is there because it has been consistently alluded to over millenia. Yahweh resists competition, Yahweh is demanding, there is failure in my God.People have articulated these traits with sincere attempts to explain them. Yahweh is not nice or any human approximate of same. Yahweh is the tough love of our creation in its entirety. Please dissect my analogous journey here , Purple Knight.

I think this is another expression that it is simply the universe, or perhaps I just lean Spinozan. It's hard to articulate, isn't it?

This word God is a million billion things to you and none to me. A few notes, a shared experience between you and your religious brethren.

But what, exactly, are you claiming exists?

If it is the song shared, then I agree. The Jaws theme exists, and indeed it means exactly what I have detailed to a great many people who share that story, and those notes. That doesn't mean the literal Jaws shark exists, however. This is where it gets complicated.

So what, exactly, are you singing about? Is there even a claim of existence beyond the song and the effects it has? There doesn't have to be.

[Thomas123]

[Replying to post 23 by Willum]

Opening Post
If God is all powerful, omnipresent, and in short, the most profound thing in the universe, even the world, it should be trivially easy to quantitatively and definitively distinguish It from myth, fable or the imagination.
Willum
The difference is, sound and music are real and measurable, regardless of perception.
Reply
Are you saving that you want a measurement or a distinguishing?
If the requirement is that of the opening post then I ask you to do the following.

Distinguish sound from music?
How do you measure music?

[Thomas123]

Isaiah 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand ever.

Music does seem to be an almost universal language that is a precious form of agreed human expression. It is the product of using the platform of sound that is available to us, in tandem with the evolved auditory and mental faculties it has produced in us. Sound made it's own music through us. We are the commonality that makes sound into music. When we define sound by using music we approximate at a minuscule portion of what sound is and what its actual influences are.

When I call an all encompassing entity, Father that is what I do. I reach as high as I can go.
We are told in one account of Genesis that God made us in his own likeness. In another account his breath is put into us. Some people say that the glory of God is man fully alive. I do not agree with this, nor does Isaiah 40, for that matter.(a good read). In my opinion, man's religious music displays a minuscule amount of information about God.

The evolvement of God belief is proof that this platform is present and that it can be approached and approximated at, to the best of our human faculties which have evolved from it.
Just as music is varied and often unappreciated, so too can you see basic human responses formulate God assimilations. The best religious narratives will be those that are best reflected in actuality and like the discernment of music quality the calibration should eventually swing towards popularity unless the settling process is sabotaged, as unfortunately is the norm.
By this logic alone do I see Yahweh as real.
Most fantasy genres carry metaphorical allusions to actuality and it would be impossible for me personally to clearly deliniate to you, religious narrative from these fantasy offerings. It would be like explaining the difference between music and noise,

[Willum]

[Replying to Thomas Mc Donald]

I am saying if you can’t talk about the topic without turning it into a strawman, your god does not exist.

[Thomas123]

, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork."

I believe this to be true. Yesterday one of my azaleas opened up a single bud as if to check out the March air. An early bumblebee landed on it. I thought that it was a very wise thing to do because it is still frosty and there are few pollinators around. Check things out before making a mistake. How does a simple plant have it within itself to do that. Look before you leap and all that. Am I making up fantasy or is this the reality of Yahweh referred to ,thousands of years ago in Psalm 19. What is unreal about this, Willum?

[Zzyzx]

.

How does a simple plant have it within itself to do that.

Botanists study such things. It isn't magic. No gods or religion or philosophical pondering required.

Control over plant flowering time is extremely important. For example, insect pollinators are only around at certain times of the year. If a plant was to start flowering too soon, or late, pollination and the production of the next generation of plants wouldn’t happen.

To ensure flowering at the correct time, plants rely on a range of environmental factors which help to tell them when to start flowering including: food availability, light and temperature. These factors are all linked together in a complex network. This complex network also helps plants to not incorrectly respond to a single flowering environmental cue. For example, if a plant relied purely on temperature as a signal, it could end up flowering too soon- think of those odd ‘hot’ days in early winter, followed soon after by heavy frost or snow…
https://scientisterica.wordpress.com/20 ... to-flower/

It is not uncommon, however, for some plants to bud / flower too early and be damaged by later freezes. Stuff happens. Weather can be quite variable.

Related: Adjacent to the south and east sides of the Great Lakes is a 'fruit-belt' a few miles wide. Owners of orchards and vineyards are aware that particular area has a microclimate known for seldom, if ever, having a 'false spring' (early budding / blooming). Once the lakes thaw and water warms, danger of frost is past.

[Willum]

, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork."

I believe this to be true. Yesterday one of my azaleas... Am I making up fantasy or is this the reality of Yahweh referred to ,thousands of years ago in Psalm 19. What is unreal about this, Willum?

Why nothing, if you're a druid, or worship flowers and their capabilities.
But that is that hard line you are drawing. Flowers may be amazing, certainly they can make inanimate matter and create life in it. Observably, your God has never been observed to to that.
Or observed at all for that matter.

But to suggest that your deity is not a myth or some other facet of the imagination, based on how amazing flowers are, is non-sequitur.

Saying the Moon is yellow, therefore it is made of green cheese, is not solid reasoning.