Is Jesus with us?

[marco]

One of the problems of taking a meaning from biblical texts is that when an apparent flaw turns up, we can use the trick of metaphor to explain it. Take what Christ said:

"and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world."

In what possible sense is the 1st century preacher with people today? Metaphorically, of course, in the same way that Horace is with us in his odes. Horace built a monument more lasting than bronze. If Christ is saying the same thing, however, in what format did he expect his presence to persist? He wrote nothing down, so he expected rumour and Chinese whispers to blow his message around the globe. And we have exactly what would be expected from such foolish methodology: dozens of different messages all with the claim they come from Christ. And many exaggerations and lies - as in Matthew and the ghouls.

So once again we reach the question of Christ's practicality and efficiency. Some will say: 'Look what he has achieved. Roman Catholics populate the whole globe'. Others will say, 'Catholics don't count'. And reason will say that Christ sowed division - he said he would- we have doubt and animosity. He said he was Truth; it seems he is Doubt.


Is Christ with us today, in any sense?

[marco]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]


Various people here express their belief that Christ is with them. See a good person and Christ might shine through them, or it might be Muhammad who accounts for their goodness or maybe Buddha.

Goodness isn't a monopoly of Christ, but when we offer some money to a poor stranger we can generously attribute our kindness to the teaching of Jesus. This of course is absurd, since people have been generous before the Bethlehem birth.

The religious diversity we have nowadays - some think Jesus appears in bread and wine while others think he just sits as a telepathic adviser - has nothing to do with Sermons on the Mount.

A mother who opens a photograph album and sees her dead son has him with her, possibly in a more meaningful way than she has Jesus with her.

[bjs]

Goodness isn't a monopoly of Christ, but when we offer some money to a poor stranger we can generously attribute our kindness to the teaching of Jesus. This of course is absurd, since people have been generous before the Bethlehem birth.

Certainly it is possible to be generous without belief in or knowledge of Jesus Christ. Since many millions of people have claimed that they acted generously specifically because of Jesus, can you provide evidence that they are dishonest in their claim or that they are mistaken about their own motivations? Or are you just calling it “absurd� because that fits with a specific bias regardless of evidence or reason?

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 3 by bjs]

Since many millions of people have claimed that they acted generously specifically because of Jesus, can you provide evidence that they are dishonest in their claim or that they are mistaken about their own motivations?

Being generous because you have been told to or because you want to ingratiate yourself with someone is not quite the same as being generous because you have empathy for your fellow human beings.

[marco]

Certainly it is possible to be generous without belief in or knowledge of Jesus Christ. Since many millions of people have claimed that they acted generously specifically because of Jesus, can you provide evidence that they are dishonest in their claim or that they are mistaken about their own motivations? Or are you just calling it “absurd� because that fits with a specific bias regardless of evidence or reason?

I'm not sure what "it" is that I am calling absurd. Some people think that Jesus guides them today by which they mean that they choose to attribute any good they do to him and presumably any bad to the wiles of Satan. I have no doubt of good intentions. Einstein was inspired by Newton but that does not mean that Newton was present. One can be inspired by Keats or by Plato. In the case of Christ people are inspired by the words ascribed to him by people who didn't know him.

There is much in the accounts of Christ that might inspire and there are things that might cause us to raise an eyebrow. He was a man of early times, treading round Roman deities; not the cleverest of his day but with a name much used to build great, political institutions. Some even think he was a young god. Praise indeed.

[marco]

Being generous because you have been told to or because you want to ingratiate yourself with someone is not quite the same as being generous because you have empathy for your fellow human beings.

I think the attribution comes retrospectively, brunumb. People drop some coins in a beggar's hat and then over coffee, reflect on how Jesus told them to. They were only following orders. The problem with such surrendering of our free will is that when Jesus tells us to burn heretics, we light a fire and when Jesus tells us to shake the dust off our sandals and ignore family, we do so very willingly. It shouldn't take Jesus or Francis of Assisi to get us to be nice to our fellow men.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

He is I believe Jesus is with "us" as in his people.

According to scripture, Jesus sees everyone else and is not indifferent to their suffering, but I don't think he is with everyone in the sense that he takes an active role in leading and protecting them spiritually.

Biblically Jesus rejects the infidel, the wicked and those that refuse to acknowledge or who do not have a heart inclined to know, His father; "they", I'm afraid are on their own. NOTE Of course *I* nor any human is in a position to judge who falls into which catagory.


JEHOVAHS WITNESS

[1213]

… dozens of different messages all with the claim they come from Christ. And many exaggerations and lies - as in Matthew and the ghouls. …

How did you come up to that conclusion?

[bjs]

I'm not sure what "it" is that I am calling absurd.

You wrote:

...but when we offer some money to a poor stranger we can generously attribute our kindness to the teaching of Jesus. This of course is absurd...

Did you mean something other than what you wrote? Is there a reason that you do not know what “it� is that you called absurd?

[bjs]

[Replying to post 3 by bjs]

Since many millions of people have claimed that they acted generously specifically because of Jesus, can you provide evidence that they are dishonest in their claim or that they are mistaken about their own motivations?

Being generous because you have been told to or because you want to ingratiate yourself with someone is not quite the same as being generous because you have empathy for your fellow human beings.

May I assume that you accusing Christians of being generous because they have bene told to or because they want to ingratiate themselves to someone (God, maybe?). The vagueness of you post seems unproductive.

At any rate, if my assumption is correct then your statement is a strawman. Orthodox Christians are not trying to ingratiate themselves to anyone.

If my assumption is incorrect, perhaps you could clarify your meaning.