Why Islam does not clash with modern science, or does it?

[Abdelrahman]

Peace be unto all of you! Believers and Non-Believers alike!

As a Muslim, we put huge regard on scripture not clashing with modern science. We believe that if God created the scripture then it should not contain errors in it when referencing the natural world and what we've come to understand about it.

"Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction." - The Holy Quran (4:82)

Many Christian/Atheist debates exist out there, but I am saddened to see that no atheists debate Muslim scholars who read and write Arabic fluently. When debates are organized between people who don't understand arabic or science it goes no where.

Arabic is my mother tongue. I also speak English at home so I'd say im fluent in both. I am a science university graduate and I love the topic of religion and science.

In Islam, we don't have 'blind faith'. I am not allowed to believe something blindly, I must have reasons. Real reasons. That is why we believe God allowed the prophets to perform miracles - so as to give people a sign. And since we believe the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be the last prophet, his sign and lasting miracle is the Qur'an. The Qur'an is meant to be a 'sign' to the end of time and I invite all members to reflect on its verses.

I am looking to debate someone on whether or not Islamic scriptural references to the natural world clash with modern scientific understanding!

[Tcg]

That biological life was created by GOD and HIM alone is indisputable.

Then you should be able to provide indisputable evidence to support this assertion. What have you got?


Tcg

I've got the BIBLE, HISTORY, ARCHEOLOGY, JESUS, OTHER BELIEVERS, answered PRAYERS, ISRAEL, the JEWS, CREATIONIST SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH, the difference in ATTITUDES between Christians and nonbelievers...

This is nothing but a list of things. I asked for indisputable evidence. Care to try again? Pick your very best evidence and present it.


Tcg

[LittleNipper]

That biological life was created by GOD and HIM alone is indisputable.

Then you should be able to provide indisputable evidence to support this assertion. What have you got?


Tcg

I've got the BIBLE, HISTORY, ARCHEOLOGY, JESUS, OTHER BELIEVERS, answered PRAYERS, ISRAEL, the JEWS, CREATIONIST SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH, the difference in ATTITUDES between Christians and nonbelievers...

This is nothing but a list of things. I asked for indisputable evidence. Care to try again? Pick your very best evidence and present it.


Tcg

I've presented you far more than you have presented to me. There is far more evidence that GOD exists and created the Universe, then you have presented that nature just happened, and that life is an inevitable consequence of that nature...

[Tcg]

That biological life was created by GOD and HIM alone is indisputable.

Then you should be able to provide indisputable evidence to support this assertion. What have you got?


Tcg

I've got the BIBLE, HISTORY, ARCHEOLOGY, JESUS, OTHER BELIEVERS, answered PRAYERS, ISRAEL, the JEWS, CREATIONIST SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH, the difference in ATTITUDES between Christians and nonbelievers...

This is nothing but a list of things. I asked for indisputable evidence. Care to try again? Pick your very best evidence and present it.


Tcg

I've presented you far more than you have presented to me. There is far more evidence that GOD exists and created the Universe, then you have presented that nature just happened, and that life is an inevitable consequence of that nature...

I never made the claim that, "nature just happened, and that life is an inevitable consequence of that nature..." You on the other hand made this claim, "That biological life was created by GOD and HIM alone is indisputable." Once again you have failed to even attempt to present indisputable evidence that your claim is true. Why is that?


Tcg

[LittleNipper]

That biological life was created by GOD and HIM alone is indisputable.

Then you should be able to provide indisputable evidence to support this assertion. What have you got?


Tcg

I've got the BIBLE, HISTORY, ARCHEOLOGY, JESUS, OTHER BELIEVERS, answered PRAYERS, ISRAEL, the JEWS, CREATIONIST SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH, the difference in ATTITUDES between Christians and nonbelievers...

This is nothing but a list of things. I asked for indisputable evidence. Care to try again? Pick your very best evidence and present it.


Tcg

I've presented you far more than you have presented to me. There is far more evidence that GOD exists and created the Universe, then you have presented that nature just happened, and that life is an inevitable consequence of that nature...

I never made the claim that, "nature just happened, and that life is an inevitable consequence of that nature..." You on the other hand made this claim, "That biological life was created by GOD and HIM alone is indisputable." Once again you have failed to even attempt to present indisputable evidence that your claim is true. Why is that?


Tcg

So, you don't believe that nature just happened and that life is an inevitable consequence of said nature. In which case the only other alternative is a CREATOR and GOD certainly fits the bill. You can't have it both ways. And Jesus was declared by HIS Apostles as the CREATOR and HE certainly existed.

[Tcg]

That biological life was created by GOD and HIM alone is indisputable.

Then you should be able to provide indisputable evidence to support this assertion. What have you got?


Tcg

I've got the BIBLE, HISTORY, ARCHEOLOGY, JESUS, OTHER BELIEVERS, answered PRAYERS, ISRAEL, the JEWS, CREATIONIST SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH, the difference in ATTITUDES between Christians and nonbelievers...

This is nothing but a list of things. I asked for indisputable evidence. Care to try again? Pick your very best evidence and present it.


Tcg

I've presented you far more than you have presented to me. There is far more evidence that GOD exists and created the Universe, then you have presented that nature just happened, and that life is an inevitable consequence of that nature...

I never made the claim that, "nature just happened, and that life is an inevitable consequence of that nature..." You on the other hand made this claim, "That biological life was created by GOD and HIM alone is indisputable." Once again you have failed to even attempt to present indisputable evidence that your claim is true. Why is that?


Tcg

So, you don't believe that nature just happened and that life is an inevitable consequence of said nature. In which case the only other alternative is a CREATOR and GOD certainly fits the bill. You can't have it both ways. And Jesus was declared by HIS Apostles as the CREATOR and HE certainly existed.

You're putting words in my mouth yet again. It is very poor debating form, and a logical fallacy called a Straw Man argument.

Are you ever going to get around to providing that indisputable evidence?


Tcg

[Clownboat]

You're putting words in my mouth yet again. It is very poor debating form, and a logical fallacy called a Straw Man argument.

Are you ever going to get around to providing that indisputable evidence?
Tcg

The liar lies and the preacher preaches. Sad but true, even in a debate of all places!

[LittleNipper]

That biological life was created by GOD and HIM alone is indisputable.

Then you should be able to provide indisputable evidence to support this assertion. What have you got?


Tcg

I've got the BIBLE, HISTORY, ARCHEOLOGY, JESUS, OTHER BELIEVERS, answered PRAYERS, ISRAEL, the JEWS, CREATIONIST SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH, the difference in ATTITUDES between Christians and nonbelievers...

This is nothing but a list of things. I asked for indisputable evidence. Care to try again? Pick your very best evidence and present it.


Tcg

I've presented you far more than you have presented to me. There is far more evidence that GOD exists and created the Universe, then you have presented that nature just happened, and that life is an inevitable consequence of that nature...

I never made the claim that, "nature just happened, and that life is an inevitable consequence of that nature..." You on the other hand made this claim, "That biological life was created by GOD and HIM alone is indisputable." Once again you have failed to even attempt to present indisputable evidence that your claim is true. Why is that?


Tcg

So, you don't believe that nature just happened and that life is an inevitable consequence of said nature. In which case the only other alternative is a CREATOR and GOD certainly fits the bill. You can't have it both ways. And Jesus was declared by HIS Apostles as the CREATOR and HE certainly existed.

You're putting words in my mouth yet again. It is very poor debating form, and a logical fallacy called a Straw Man argument.

Are you ever going to get around to providing that indisputable evidence?


Tcg

I'm sorry, but you painted yourself into that corner totally without me. The JEWs and JESUS are indisputable evidence of GOD. There is no other way an ancient nation so abused and hated could have survived without the promises of GOD.

[Clownboat]

I'm sorry, but you painted yourself into that corner totally without me. The JEWs and JESUS are indisputable evidence of GOD. There is no other way an ancient nation so abused and hated could have survived without the promises of GOD.

All you did was jump from one fallacy to another and you surely did not offer up any indisputable evidence for any god concept.

Argument from incredulity, also known as argument from personal incredulity, appeal to common sense, or the divine fallacy, is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition must be false because it contradicts one's personal expectations or beliefs, or is difficult to imagine.

You just cant imagine how a peoples (the Jews) have survived, therefore a god is necessary. If only this god concept you believe in would assist you with your replies or at least prevent you from having so much illogical reasoning (the logical fallacies). But alas, we get what we get. Could you imagine if there was an eternal souls on the line and that these types of fallacies were the best reasoning available?

[Mae von H]

[Replying to post 1 by Abdelrahman]

I am looking to debate someone on whether or not Islamic scriptural references to the natural world clash with modern scientific understanding!

Why don't you give some specific examples of such references to discuss? It is very easy to show that many biblical stories could not possibly have happened as described in that book (eg. Noah's flood, the creation story of Genesis, people living to 900+ years, etc.).

Are there similar stories in the Qur'an? If so, then it should be straightforward to analyze them in light of modern science and determine whether or not they are viable, or if they are like Noah's flood and clearly nothing but myth. Do you have some examples from the Qur'an?

Yes there are similar stories! However, let me explain something. The miracles that are described in scripture were miracles for their times. The Prophets of God were given the ability to perform miracles in order to convince people. God was not going to send a messenger without some sign or somesort of 'proof' for people who reflect because He is fair. Someone who would have witnessed Jesus cure the blind for example, during Jesus's time, would reflect upon what he/she saw and would reflect on whether it was possible for men to bring back the dead and cure the blind instantly. They would be looking at the evidence and battling in their minds where the Prophet was speaking the truth or whether there was some natural explanation to what they saw.

I cannot prove that any of these past miracles happened and if I can explain them away with science then they cease to be miracles. Besides Noah's flood (ILL COME BACK TO THIS), I cannot really prove much that these miracles happened. HOWEVER, what I can do is point you to the miracle meant for our time. The 'evidence' per say. And that is the Qur'an.

Yes the Qur'an contains stories about the Prophets that seem difficult to imagine, however, this is not our evidence. The Qur'an itself challenges us to ponder over its verses. To reflect upon its 'signs'. To think and challenge it when it describes natural phenomenon. For if the scripture makes a mistake scientifically when describing a natural phenomenon then we can attest that it is not from God.

"Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction." - The Holy Qur'an [4:82]

The scripture itself challenges us to find contradiction, error and that if we found any it would cease being 'from God'.

Here are some of those verses:

"And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander." - The Holy Qur'an [51:47]

Haven here does not mean Paradise but the sky and space. God makes the statement that space (the universe) is expanding.

"Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?" - The Holy Qur'an [21:30]

Professor Alfred Kroner, chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenburg University, Mainz, Germany said:

"Thinking about many of these questions and thinking where Muhammad came from, he was after all a bedouin. I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case."

The Qur'an makes the claim that the heavens and the Earth were once a connected entity. We are also told in the same verse that every living thing is made from water and then we are asked, will you then not believe? The Qur'an is basically saying that these are signs for belief. Since the Qur'an is a 1400 year old text, I ask where could have Muhammad (pbuh) have gotten these ideas about nature?

I can list many more, but lets just start with the ones I've listed!

ALMOST FORGOT! NOAHS FLOOD! Look up the work of Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson. Both men that are not religious. Graham Hancock studies ancient civilizations and shows us how the story of Noahs flood isn't exclusive to Christianity or Abrahamic faiths for that matter. He makes the case that such a flood was recorded in history in other traditions. Randall Carlson joins in with the science, geological evidence, ice core sample analysis, fossil records etc. I highly recommend any of their interviews with Joe Rogan on Youtube but start with the first ones where they go through all the evidence they're discovering. Pretty cool stuff if you have even a basic understanding of environmental science.

[Mae von H]

[Replying to post 1 by Abdelrahman]

I am looking to debate someone on whether or not Islamic scriptural references to the natural world clash with modern scientific understanding!

Why don't you give some specific examples of such references to discuss? It is very easy to show that many biblical stories could not possibly have happened as described in that book (eg. Noah's flood, the creation story of Genesis, people living to 900+ years, etc.).

Are there similar stories in the Qur'an? If so, then it should be straightforward to analyze them in light of modern science and determine whether or not they are viable, or if they are like Noah's flood and clearly nothing but myth. Do you have some examples from the Qur'an?

Yes there are similar stories! However, let me explain something. The miracles that are described in scripture were miracles for their times. The Prophets of God were given the ability to perform miracles in order to convince people. God was not going to send a messenger without some sign or somesort of 'proof' for people who reflect because He is fair. Someone who would have witnessed Jesus cure the blind for example, during Jesus's time, would reflect upon what he/she saw and would reflect on whether it was possible for men to bring back the dead and cure the blind instantly. They would be looking at the evidence and battling in their minds where the Prophet was speaking the truth or whether there was some natural explanation to what they saw.

I cannot prove that any of these past miracles happened and if I can explain them away with science then they cease to be miracles. Besides Noah's flood (ILL COME BACK TO THIS), I cannot really prove much that these miracles happened. HOWEVER, what I can do is point you to the miracle meant for our time. The 'evidence' per say. And that is the Qur'an.

Yes the Qur'an contains stories about the Prophets that seem difficult to imagine, however, this is not our evidence. The Qur'an itself challenges us to ponder over its verses. To reflect upon its 'signs'. To think and challenge it when it describes natural phenomenon. For if the scripture makes a mistake scientifically when describing a natural phenomenon then we can attest that it is not from God.

"Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction." - The Holy Qur'an [4:82]

The scripture itself challenges us to find contradiction, error and that if we found any it would cease being 'from God'.

Here are some of those verses:

"And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander." - The Holy Qur'an [51:47]

Haven here does not mean Paradise but the sky and space. God makes the statement that space (the universe) is expanding.

"Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?" - The Holy Qur'an [21:30]

Professor Alfred Kroner, chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenburg University, Mainz, Germany said:

"Thinking about many of these questions and thinking where Muhammad came from, he was after all a bedouin. I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case."

The Qur'an makes the claim that the heavens and the Earth were once a connected entity. We are also told in the same verse that every living thing is made from water and then we are asked, will you then not believe? The Qur'an is basically saying that these are signs for belief. Since the Qur'an is a 1400 year old text, I ask where could have Muhammad (pbuh) have gotten these ideas about nature?

I can list many more, but lets just start with the ones I've listed!

ALMOST FORGOT! NOAHS FLOOD! Look up the work of Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson. Both men that are not religious. Graham Hancock studies ancient civilizations and shows us how the story of Noahs flood isn't exclusive to Christianity or Abrahamic faiths for that matter. He makes the case that such a flood was recorded in history in other traditions. Randall Carlson joins in with the science, geological evidence, ice core sample analysis, fossil records etc. I highly recommend any of their interviews with Joe Rogan on Youtube but start with the first ones where they go through all the evidence they're discovering. Pretty cool stuff if you have even a basic understanding of environmental science.

Can you give us some quotes from the Quran that describe miracles done by prophets mentioned?