Bible difficulties and their harmonizations

[Difflugia]

In the spirit of this post, I'd like to try something. For any contradictions or difficulties that are posted, what are the various harmonizations that other members are satisfied with?

The experiment is to try to keep the argument away from whether or not the harmonizations are reasonable, but only to whether or not the harmonization has missed something that might need to be added. I guess I can't think of hard and fast rules for the debate, but the goal is to find harmonizations that others might not have thought of for particular difficulties without turning into a debate about whether they're good enough for a skeptic. If a harmonization claims to cover all the bases, then that's it. A more complete harmonization is always welcome, however.

[Purple Knight]

[Replying to post 20 by bluegreenearth]

The idea that Judas's name seems this coincidental is interesting, but what I really found entertaining was the ads I got at the end.

[Difflugia]

...And it's not supposed to sound, well... ridiculous?

Is that more or less ridiculous than Paul being such a boring speaker (Acts 20:7-12) that a guy fell out of a window and died? Fortunately, Paul was there to bring him back to life.

This is not smug atheist declaring the Bible to be ridiculous. Far from it. This is actually a point in favour of the story being true, because I cannot see how the living Pennywise anyone could make that up. He suddenly popped like a balloon, and made a loud bang. No, wait... perhaps the resonant noise it made was the honk-honk of a bicycle horn.

Or the cry of a dying animal?

Dennis R. MacDonald thinks Luke was influenced by The Iliad.

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to post 20 by bluegreenearth]

The idea that Judas's name seems this coincidental is interesting, but what I really found entertaining was the ads I got at the end.

No fair! The ads I observed were different from what you received. What if I wanted to know how to empty my bowls every morning?

[Purple Knight]

No fair! The ads I observed were different from what you received. What if I wanted to know how to empty my bowls every morning?

I'll just tell you, since I fought through 30 pages of clickscammery to finally find out.

Betray Jesus.

You'll inexplicably gain 300 pounds, roll around in a field you bought, and then suddenly pop, and at last chariots will arrive to run over your splattered remains, but at least your bowels will be empty.

#ModernDayProblems

(If you really can't go, cuppa strong coffee cures that right up, plus it's faster and less bothersome than finding out where Jesus happens to be and finding people who care enough to pay for that information. Imagine that when I pointed the fellow out to the nearest officer, I wasn't given a thirty shekel reward, but instead told to stop making such a fuss about the homeless!)

Is that more or less ridiculous than Paul being such a boring speaker (Acts 20:7-12) that a guy fell out of a window and died? Fortunately, Paul was there to bring him back to life.

More; much, much more. People do get bored and nod off, presumably they can fall. People also come back to life under certain circumstances.

But randomly exploding? That takes the cake I'm afraid.

Dennis R. MacDonald thinks Luke was influenced by The Iliad.

"According to Papias, God punished Judas with an 'efflux' of bloody discharge and maggots that 'seeped into the ground.'"

Okay, well, maybe... if Judas gained all that weight by gorging on KFC.

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[Replying to post 17 by Purple Knight]

Well i will assume you have not read the apologetic position on this.. But it has been mentioned in the first post so i am surprised you have not taken the time to read it..

Simply put Judas committed suicide by hanging himself in a tree on this field that came to be called the field of blood.. Because he hung himself on a Sabbath day ( the sabbath in question was the first day of leavened bread a yearly Jewish High Sabbath ) His body was deemed cursed according to the OT law.. Therefore none of the Jewish people would handle his body or take it down.. His body was left there to start to rot..

Later when the body reached a level of decay the hanging rope cut through the weakened neck of Judas and his body now in an advanced state of decay fell out of the tree and because it's abdominal wall was likewise weakened by decay upon impact with the ground his stomach burst open and his innards spewed out upon the ground..

So Judas did not die from having his stomach explode.. Judas was already dead for some time before his dead body hit the ground and burst open..

[Purple Knight]

[Replying to post 17 by Purple Knight]

Well i will assume you have not read the apologetic position on this.. But it has been mentioned in the first post so i am surprised you have not taken the time to read it..

Simply put Judas committed suicide by hanging himself in a tree on this field that came to be called the field of blood.. Because he hung himself on a Sabbath day ( the sabbath in question was the first day of leavened bread a yearly Jewish High Sabbath ) His body was deemed cursed according to the OT law.. Therefore none of the Jewish people would handle his body or take it down.. His body was left there to start to rot..

Later when the body reached a level of decay the hanging rope cut through the weakened neck of Judas and his body now in an advanced state of decay fell out of the tree and because it's abdominal wall was likewise weakened by decay upon impact with the ground his stomach burst open and his innards spewed out upon the ground..

So Judas did not die from having his stomach explode.. Judas was already dead for some time before his dead body hit the ground and burst open..

The passage specified he fell headlong, in other words, head-first.

Look, I'm sure you can harmonise any two accounts of Judas's death you wish. I do this with Star Trek: I anti-nitpick (resolve contradictions) because it's harder than nitpicking (finding contradictions) and thus more of an intellectual challenge.

I don't have a problem with anti-nitpicking and you can always make it work if you try hard enough. My incredulity that he exploded was simply a bit of fun at the expense not of the story, but the way it seems to be written.

If there's a genuine issue I have with the story, it's not something that needs to be "resolved" in that it's not a contradiction at all. It's that versions that don't mention suicide seem to paint Judas as sinking under the weight of his own greed. The punishments are depicted as harsh, and the reader would agree with them because no hint of remorse is mentioned.

When you mention remorse, even by having Judas commit suicide, that's really a whole different story. Was he crushed under greed, or guilt? That's very, very important.

And it's really telling stories about two different people. Was the greed a momentary flicker that we all have and he soon regretted? Or was he just a horribly greedy, gluttonous fat sack who pops, and the reader cheers?

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[Replying to post 26 by Purple Knight]

Well Judas was a sinner who had a weakness for money.. I do not cheer His death actually his suicide was a great tragedy because he was not saved... I do not rejoice at the death of anyone who i believe in unsaved..

This was not the only money Judas had gotten by rotten means.. It is recorded in the Bible that Judas who was acting as the groups treasurer was corruptly taking money for his own use from the money meant for the group and for charity..

John 12: KJV
2 "There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him. {3} Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. {4} Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, which should betray him, {5} Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? {6} This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein."

[Purple Knight]

Well Judas was a sinner who had a weakness for money.

Alright, fair enough, but which is the real Judas?

When suicide is mentioned, the character transforms into one plagued by guilt over what he did, which means (to me) that deep down, he was a good person. The tale is particularly poignant now, because anyone, no matter how inherently good, can likewise give in to temptation and do something horrible. It's even frightening, since no doubt this character thought, well, skimming here and there is fine. Let me just pay myself out half of what I saved them on that Gazebo. Everybody wins, and no one gets hurt. But then... someone died because of that greed. This is the better story, hands-down. 8/10.

When suicide is not mentioned, he's just a greedy fat sack who I have no sympathy for whatsoever. If he was ever decent, that was entirely overtaken by greed. If he exploded, good riddance, but it's honestly just a worse and less interesting version of some of the sick punishments the Grimms Brothers cooked up for their villains, which were so bad that many of them had to be toned down for children. Bad guy does bad thing, gets punished. Yawn. 3/10.

Now I'll rate the characters.

Greedy fat sack gets a 1/10. He's only not a zero because he's believable, but there are billions of people just like that, doing things just like that, every day. I also can't relate to this fellow or learn anything from his folly, because it wasn't a folly. He meant to do it. He meant to do all of it. He was always just greedy.

But if he killed himself? 9/10. A nearly perfect character. He feels all the emotions, you see. I like this one, and furthermore I can learn something about not justifying it when I'm really only giving in to temptation. Not only that, but honestly I feel he did the right thing in the end. I know Christians don't endorse it, but I feel there is some honour in it, and I don't think it's cowardly, for every fear is only an extension of that primal fear: The fear of death. To take one's own life in admission that one was wrong... is at least an admission that one was wrong. And it means something, because everything ill-gained was given up.

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[Replying to post 28 by Purple Knight]

When suicide is mentioned, the character transforms into one plagued by guilt over what he did, which means (to me) that deep down, he was a good person.

His last act was to murder.. He murdered himself.. He never accepted the forgiveness of the LORD Jesus.. And Jesus made it clear in the Bible that no one is good but God.. Now in human relative measure we can think one person is better or good and the other person is bad.. But a Perfect God cannot assess like that.. His measure is an absolute measure .. So only a score of 100% is a pass when it comes to being good.. 99.95 is a failure in Gods perfect terms..

You of course being a human being measure one man 3/10 and another man 9/10 But to God both men need toi be justly forgiven.. And in Christianity both the 3/10 guy and the 9/10 can be both forgiven by the atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ.. One guy is forgiven 7 bads and the other 1 bad.. Both end up standing before God on the day of judgement and both are Deemed to be 10/10 perfect and acceptable to enter into Gods perfect eternal existence..

Jesus told a parable once about a guy forgiving the debts of people who owed his master money.. One guy was forgiven a huge debt the other guy was forgiven a small debt.. Who appreciated having their debt forgiven more... Well the one who had the huge debt.. So people who are the worst of sinners love the Atonement of Jesus more..

[Goat]

[*]What Judas did with the money: throw it to the priests or buy a field.
BOTH. Judas purchased the field posthumously.





JW

But that is not what either of the text's said. Why introduce a third inconsistency that is not supported by either of the texts dealing with it to try to 'harmonize' an inconsistency?