Understanding the past to understand Jesus is God

[Wootah]

I was thinking about the difficulty of explaining to our wide array of Christians that Jesus is God. Anyway, try this argument.

The North American religions, JW. 7th Day and Mormons, don't see Jesus as God (I think) and I wonder if that has more to do with the growth of the enlightenment and democracy than anything else. We live in a time of freedom from Kings and rulers and lords and lieges. In this age every person is their own god.

But what we miss from this is the nature of saying Jesus is Lord, or X is my King, is the complete ownership that was implied in the past by someone who said they were King. Game of Thrones is perhaps the closest we have seen of the absolute sovereignty of an Emperor, or a master within their own household. When Cersei says jump, kill, die, the soldiers and people do.

Tom Holland in his book Dominion talks about how a Roman citizen had absolute rights over his slave property says this.

https://scroll.in/article/953904/christ ... om-holland

A Roman man had the right to sexually use anyone who was subordinate to him: Slaves, social inferiors. He could just use their mouths, their various orifices, as receptacles for his excess sperm. And so, the Romans had this one word “mayo� for urine and ejaculate. This is how it’s seen. And so it casts those who have to receive the Roman males’ attentions in a rather unpleasant light.

We say we understand God and sovereignty but the argument I making here is that we don't. Can you or I really fathom the totality of a leadership position back in antiquity?

The Bible in Matthew 8:5-13 talks about a centurion who approaches Jesus to heal his servant. The centurion says to Jesus, "But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.� and Jesus is amazed by him. But if Jesus was amazed can you or I understand actual authority in this day and age?

Consider all the Kings in the old testament and how they could sign into law the death of whole people groups (book of Esther) or could sign a law that everyone had to worship a statue (book of Daniel). Absolute power or an attempt to do so.

To call Jesus Lord is to call Jesus God because for all intents and purposes a King or Emperor or Master in antiquity was god for the people under them.

Thoughts?

[Eloi]

Did you read it? Jesus called Jehovah "Father, Lord of heaven and earth" ... Doesn't that tell you anything?

I thought your topic was about who is the LORD of the entire Universe including Jesus. Excuse my meddling.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Did you read it? Jesus called Jehovah "Father, Lord of heaven and earth" ... Doesn't that tell you anything?

I thought your topic was about who is the LORD of the entire Universe including Jesus. Excuse my meddling.

I did not start this topic. Perhaps you meant to address your post to the OP instead of to me?

[Eloi]

[Replying to post 12 by tam]

You're right. My apologies for that. Reading the last posts I just answered those ... I thought you were the one talking about Jesus saying that he is Lord and that means he is God ... I was wrong, it was Wootah.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 8 by tam]

Hi Tam,

Yes, I think I have understood the point you're trying to make (that calling someone lord makes them your god). But I'm not sure how that point works in favor of the claim that "Jesus is God."

No that is not my point. My point is that you don't understand what those words meant historically. If you did I would know by your posts.

Sarah called Abraham her lord, but that did not mean that she was calling Abraham, God (God, as in the Most Holy One; "YHWH").

Actually a husband is the god of his wife. The worst act like Satan, the best like Jesus. We all fail to model either god Satan or God Jesus correctly but they are the models available. The church is the bride of Christ but we should consider the not church as the bride of Satan. Every mother knows how important it is for their daughter to choose a husband wisely because we know, despite what society today says, that a husband is a god to his wife. Do we choose the God that lays down their life for us or the god that has four wives or more?

Likewise, calling Christ my Lord does not mean that I am calling Christ, God (God, as in the Most Holy One of Israel; "YHWH").

I believe you. God believes you. I do not know if this is a salvation issue. I am still thinking about it. It probably isn't because none of us can understand God properly. But then maybe it is because we know what we know and denying scipture isn't good. But in our hearts we all deny scripture. So who knows. I am glad I am not Jesus to decide!

And Christ does have the final say on my life, because His God and Father gave Him that authority (though God may have mercy upon whomever He will have mercy).

No comment.

I agree that many may not fully grasp what it means to be the property of another being. That is a valid discussion on its own. But I do not see how that contributes to the claim that "Jesus is God".

(Perhaps I will ask what you mean by that claim? Who is the God that you claim [Jesus] to be?)

When someone 2000 years ago called Jesus Lord they knew exactly what they meant because they knew and experienced true lords and kings and masters. We don't.

Jesus is God as per the orthodox understanding of God as trinity, etc , etc.

It's why people started to realise God is a Trinity because they understood what they were saying when they said Jesus is Lord. They realised the Father was Lord and now they are saying the Son is Lord. It's because they understood what they were saying better than our culture can.

But again, I do not see what that has to do with the claim that "Jesus is God".

How can you not see it. Historically Thomas and others knew exactly what they were saying and it is only because of cultural understanding that we don't.

[Wootah]

Some of Jesus words Tam needs to remember:

Luke 10:21 In that very hour he became overjoyed in the holy spirit and said: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones, and have revealed them to babes. Yes, O Father, because to do thus came to be the way approved by you.

Go on, please explain your point

[Eloi]

Jesus words show who is the God of gods, since Jesus called Jehovah "Father, Lord of heaven and earth" (Luk. 10:21). He called Him GOD also, as you may know.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 8 by tam]

Hi Tam,

Yes, I think I have understood the point you're trying to make (that calling someone lord makes them your god). But I'm not sure how that point works in favor of the claim that "Jesus is God."

No that is not my point. My point is that you don't understand what those words meant historically. If you did I would know by your posts.

Give me an example please. What do you think should be in my posts which would reveal to you that I understand what those words meant historically?

Sarah called Abraham her lord, but that did not mean that she was calling Abraham, God (God, as in the Most Holy One; "YHWH").

Actually a husband is the god of his wife.

I think you completely sidestepped the point.

Does that make the husband, God (Most High, the Most Holy One of Israel, YHWH)?

Because if not, then following that same logic, calling Christ, Lord, ALSO does not make Him, God (Most High, the Most Holy One of Israel, YHWH).

The church is the bride of Christ but we should consider the not church as the bride of Satan.

Oh, no we certainly should not.

The Church (which is the Body of Christ) is the Bride, yes.


Some (many) are simply not a bride (at all).

Some are friends of the bridegroom (like John the Baptist, John 3:29), and guests of the wedding feast.

Every mother knows how important it is for their daughter to choose a husband wisely because we know, despite what society today says, that a husband is a god to his wife.

If she chooses to have a husband at all, and certainly in our society (and others as well) a man is not free to do whatever he wishes with his wife.

If we are in Christ, then we (both husbands and wives) are to serve one another - out of love. To be the servant of one another. That is the command Christ gave to His own.

**

That being said, woman have an advantage in understanding what it means to serve another (there are always exceptions), since women have more experience in serving and obeying their husbands. It has not been that long since women were considered the property of men, completely at his mercy and will and whim.

So I don't think you can say women - at least - have no concept of what this means. Same with people who were (or whose parents, grandparents, etc, were) slaves (in the slave trade).

**

REGARDLESS, all of these examples AGAINST your point that Christ must be God simply because He is called Lord. Because many are called lords, or gods, or kings, or masters... and you have already acknowledged that this does not mean they are God (the Most Holy One of Israel, the God and Father of Christ, "YHWH").


Use that same reasoning, that same logic, with Christ.

Likewise, calling Christ my Lord does not mean that I am calling Christ, God (God, as in the Most Holy One of Israel; "YHWH").

I believe you. God believes you. I do not know if this is a salvation issue. I am still thinking about it. It probably isn't because none of us can understand God properly.

But we can - if indeed we are listening to Christ, learning from Him, looking to Him. Because He is the Truth, and the One who came to bear witness to the truth (including the truth of His Father).

It's why people started to realise God is a Trinity because they understood what they were saying when they said Jesus is Lord. They realised the Father was Lord and now they are saying the Son is Lord. It's because they understood what they were saying better than our culture can.

But that does not follow, Wootah.

But again, I do not see what that has to do with the claim that "Jesus is God".

How can you not see it.

Because it does not follow.

Or else Sarah calling Abraham her Lord would have meant that Sarah thought Abraham was God (as in God Most High, the Most Holy One, YHWH).


Sarah understood what it meant, historically, did she not?


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[brianbbs67]

IDK, even if you own a business your serve your customers. Lord and other titles could well as be manager or supervisor. We still all serve others by choice or necessity.

[marco]

Some of Jesus words Tam needs to remember:

Luke 10:21 In that very hour he became overjoyed in the holy spirit and said: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones, and have revealed them to babes. Yes, O Father, because to do thus came to be the way approved by you.

An unfortunate statement for Luke to make. Keep away from scientists and theologians, philosophers and scholars and ask babies about Jesus. Doubtless that's what Matthew did when he wrote about walking corpses.

I wonder how a teacher would fare if he announced to the class that his lessons would be understood only by the stupid ones in the class. It would not say a lot for the lessons.