But is everything declared to be so by the Church, true?

[polonius]

A recent response to a post contained a very common belief among
Catholics:

"The CC has declared that ….."

Do you believe everything that the Catholic Church declares? Shall we look at some "infallible" teachings?

[MarysSon]

As for your claim above in RED - this simply illustrates why I said that you left the Catholic Church out of sheer ignorance

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Sooooo, anti-Catholics are allowed to lie with impunity - yet Catholics are NOT allowed to hold them accountable for lying??

If you want to run an anti-Catholic site - you should just advertise this fact in the registration page . . .

[otseng]

Sooooo, anti-Catholics are allowed to lie with impunity - yet Catholics are NOT allowed to hold them accountable for lying??

If you want to run an anti-Catholic site - you should just advertise this fact in the registration page . . .

Moderator Final Warning

Instead of just accusing us of running an anti-Catholic site, please just read through the Rules and abide by them.


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[polonius]

RESPONSE: Yes, indeed. The "infallible" papal teaching was then in effect was shown to be an error. (But don' tell a old-line Catholic that the Church was wrong and changed the unchangeable papal teaching!)

And, as I already educated you - he was merely parroting the teaching, Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.

Besides - if you were a Catholic at some point - you only left because of ignorance of the faith as ALL former Catholics do . . .

RESPONSE: Perhaps they believe some Catholic teaching is clearly in error.
For example, what about the two different dates of Jesus' birth, one born during the life of King Herod the Great who died in 4 BC and the other born during the 6 AD Roman census to Judea. Compare Matthew chap 2 and Luke chapter 2.

[MarysSon]

Sooooo, anti-Catholics are allowed to lie with impunity - yet Catholics are NOT allowed to hold them accountable for lying??

If you want to run an anti-Catholic site - you should just advertise this fact in the registration page . . .

Moderator Final Warning

Instead of just accusing us of running an anti-Catholic site, please just read through the Rules and abide by them.


______________

Moderator final warnings serve as the last strike towards users. Additional violations will result in a probation vote. Further infractions will lead to banishment. Any challenges or replies to moderator warnings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

Then, please make sure you apply those rules to everybody and not just the Catholics here.

[polonius]

MarysSon posted:

"The same if true for the Trinity. It wasn't officially defined until the Church was about 300 years old - but it was ALWAYS taught."

Question: When was the existence of a "Trinity" first taught?

[MarysSon]

MarysSon posted:

"The same if true for the Trinity. It wasn't officially defined until the Church was about 300 years old - but it was ALWAYS taught."

Question: When was the existence of a "Trinity" first taught?

In Scripture (Matt. 28:19).

[MarysSon]

MarysSon posted:

"The same if true for the Trinity. It wasn't officially defined until the Church was about 300 years old - but it was ALWAYS taught."

Question: When was the existence of a "Trinity" first taught?

The Early Church Fathers ALSO taught it - LONG before the Council of Nicaea . . .

Athenagoras
For, as we acknowledge a God, and a Son his Logos, and a Holy Spirit, united in essence, - the Father, the Son, the Spirit because the Son is intelligence, reason, wisdom of the Father, and the Spirit an effluence, as light from fire; so also do we apprehend the existence of other powers, which exercise dominion about matter, and by means of it (A Plea for the Christians, 2:18 [A.D. 177]).

Irenaeus
For the Son, who is the Word of God, arranged these things beforehand from the beginning, the Father being in no want of angels, in order that He might call the creation into being, and form man, for whom also the creation was made; nor, again, standing in need of any instrumentality for the framing of created things, or for the ordering of those things which had reference to man; while, [at the same time,] He has a vast and unspeakable number of servants. For His offspring and His similitude do minister to Him in every respect; that is, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the Word and Wisdom; whom all the angels serve, and to whom they are subject (Against Heresies 4:7:4 [A.D. 180-190]).

Theophilus of Antioch
The three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His Wisdom (To Autolycus 2:18 [A.D. 181]).

Clement of Alexandria
And the address in the Timœus calls the creator, Father, speaking thus: ‘Ye gods of gods, of whom I am Father; and the Creator of your works.’ So that when he says, ‘Around the king of all, all things are, and because of Him are all things; and he [or that] is the cause of all good things; and around the second are the things second in order; and around the third, the third,’ I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father (The Stromata 5:14 [A.D. 202]).

Hippolytus
A man, therefore, even though he will it not, is compelled to acknowledge God the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus the Son of God, who, being God, became man, to whom also the Father made all things subject, Himself excepted, and the Holy Spirit; and that these, therefore, are three. But if he desires to learn how it is shown still that there is one God, let him know that His power is one. As far as regards the power, therefore, God is one. But as far as regards the economy there is a threefold manifestation, as shall be proved afterwards when we give account of the true doctrine (Against the Heresy of One Noetus 8 [A.D. 200-210]).

Tertullian
…All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (Against Praxeus 2 [A.D. 213]).
…all the Scriptures attest the clear existence of, and distinction in (the Persons of) the Trinity, and indeed furnish us with our Rule of faith…. (ibid. 11[A.D. 213]).

Origen
…the divine benefits [are] bestowed upon us by Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which Trinity is the fountain of all holiness…. (On First Principles 1:4:2 [A.D. 220-230]).
And under this rule must be brought also the understanding of the sacred Scripture, in order that its statements may be judged not according to the worthlessness of the letter, but according to the divinity of the Holy Spirit, by whose inspiration they were caused to be written (ibid. 4:27 [A.D. 220-230]).
Now this expression which we employ – ‘that there never was a time when He did not exist’ – is to be understood with an allowance. For these very words ‘when’ or ‘never’ have a meaning that relates to time, whereas the statements made regarding Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are to be understood as transcending all time, all ages, and all eternity. For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds the comprehension not only of temporal but even of eternal intelligence; while other things which are not included in it are to be measured by times and ages (ibid. 4:28 [A.D. 220-230]).

Gregory Thaumaturgus
There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything superinduced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides forever (Declaration of Faith [circa A.D. 250]).

[Elijah John]

Sooooo, anti-Catholics are allowed to lie with impunity - yet Catholics are NOT allowed to hold them accountable for lying??

If you want to run an anti-Catholic site - you should just advertise this fact in the registration page . . .

Moderator Final Warning

Instead of just accusing us of running an anti-Catholic site, please just read through the Rules and abide by them.


______________

Moderator final warnings serve as the last strike towards users. Additional violations will result in a probation vote. Further infractions will lead to banishment. Any challenges or replies to moderator warnings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

Then, please make sure you apply those rules to everybody and not just the Catholics here.

Moderator Warning


You have been warned multiple times. And this warning after your final warning will no doubt trigger a probation vote or worse.

And as a matter of fact, we DO apply the same standards to everyone, Catholic, Protestant, Atheists, everyone.


Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[Athetotheist]

Not ONE Catholic doctrine has ever changed

Then what happened between the capitulum Episcopi, which became canon law in the twelfth century, dismissing witchcraft as a delusion and condemning the belief in it, and the papal bull of 1484 in which Innocent VIII ordered the apprehension and punishment of people for witchcraft?

[brianbbs67]

MarysSon posted:

"The same if true for the Trinity. It wasn't officially defined until the Church was about 300 years old - but it was ALWAYS taught."

Question: When was the existence of a "Trinity" first taught?

The Early Church Fathers ALSO taught it - LONG before the Council of Nicaea . . .

Athenagoras
For, as we acknowledge a God, and a Son his Logos, and a Holy Spirit, united in essence, - the Father, the Son, the Spirit because the Son is intelligence, reason, wisdom of the Father, and the Spirit an effluence, as light from fire; so also do we apprehend the existence of other powers, which exercise dominion about matter, and by means of it (A Plea for the Christians, 2:18 [A.D. 177]).

Irenaeus
For the Son, who is the Word of God, arranged these things beforehand from the beginning, the Father being in no want of angels, in order that He might call the creation into being, and form man, for whom also the creation was made; nor, again, standing in need of any instrumentality for the framing of created things, or for the ordering of those things which had reference to man; while, [at the same time,] He has a vast and unspeakable number of servants. For His offspring and His similitude do minister to Him in every respect; that is, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the Word and Wisdom; whom all the angels serve, and to whom they are subject (Against Heresies 4:7:4 [A.D. 180-190]).

Theophilus of Antioch
The three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His Wisdom (To Autolycus 2:18 [A.D. 181]).

Clement of Alexandria
And the address in the Timœus calls the creator, Father, speaking thus: ‘Ye gods of gods, of whom I am Father; and the Creator of your works.’ So that when he says, ‘Around the king of all, all things are, and because of Him are all things; and he [or that] is the cause of all good things; and around the second are the things second in order; and around the third, the third,’ I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father (The Stromata 5:14 [A.D. 202]).

Hippolytus
A man, therefore, even though he will it not, is compelled to acknowledge God the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus the Son of God, who, being God, became man, to whom also the Father made all things subject, Himself excepted, and the Holy Spirit; and that these, therefore, are three. But if he desires to learn how it is shown still that there is one God, let him know that His power is one. As far as regards the power, therefore, God is one. But as far as regards the economy there is a threefold manifestation, as shall be proved afterwards when we give account of the true doctrine (Against the Heresy of One Noetus 8 [A.D. 200-210]).

Tertullian
…All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (Against Praxeus 2 [A.D. 213]).
…all the Scriptures attest the clear existence of, and distinction in (the Persons of) the Trinity, and indeed furnish us with our Rule of faith…. (ibid. 11[A.D. 213]).

Origen
…the divine benefits [are] bestowed upon us by Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which Trinity is the fountain of all holiness…. (On First Principles 1:4:2 [A.D. 220-230]).
And under this rule must be brought also the understanding of the sacred Scripture, in order that its statements may be judged not according to the worthlessness of the letter, but according to the divinity of the Holy Spirit, by whose inspiration they were caused to be written (ibid. 4:27 [A.D. 220-230]).
Now this expression which we employ – ‘that there never was a time when He did not exist’ – is to be understood with an allowance. For these very words ‘when’ or ‘never’ have a meaning that relates to time, whereas the statements made regarding Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are to be understood as transcending all time, all ages, and all eternity. For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds the comprehension not only of temporal but even of eternal intelligence; while other things which are not included in it are to be measured by times and ages (ibid. 4:28 [A.D. 220-230]).

Gregory Thaumaturgus
There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything superinduced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides forever (Declaration of Faith [circa A.D. 250]).

You miss characterize Iraneous here. He was as dogmatic as his teacher, Polycarp. He even wrote the Pope about the easter issue and 14th of nissan which was passover. It went something close to this, "As you know my tea]cher Polycarp was very orthodox in his beliefs as am I but very forgiving in non orthodox things such as the date of Easter". Right there the Pope is told Easter is not doctrinal. It still isn't. This applied to Athanasuis also.