The Necessity of Falsifiability in Belief Formation

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The Necessity of Falsifiability in Belief Formation

Post #1

Post by bluegreenearth »

Here is how wikipedia describes falsifiability:
Informally, a statement is falsifiable if some observation might show it to be false. For example, "All swans are white" is falsifiable because "Here is a black swan" shows it to be false. Formally, it is the same, except that the observations used to prove falsifiability are only logical constructions distinct from those that are truly possible.

Falsifiability differs from verifiability, which was held as fundamental by many philosophers such as those of the Vienna Circle. In order to verify the claim "All swans are white" one would have to observe every swan, which is not possible, whereas the single observation "Here is a black swan" is sufficient to falsify it.

It was introduced by the philosopher of science Karl Popper in his book The Logic of Scientific Discovery (1934), as an answer to both the Problem of Induction and the Demarcation Problem. He saw falsifiability as the cornerstone of critical rationalism, his theory of science.

As a key notion in the separation of science from non-science, it has featured prominently in many scientific controversies and applications, even being used as legal precedent.
Popper noticed that two types of statements are of particular value to scientists. The first are statements of observations, such as 'this is a white swan'. Logicians describe such statements in terms of existential quantification, since they assert the existence of some particular thing. For Popper, such statements form the empirical basis of scientific theory. The second type of statement of interest to scientists categorizes all instances of something, for example "All swans are white". Logicians describe these in terms of universal quantification.

One of the questions in Scientific method is: how does one move from observations to laws? From an existential statement to a universal statement? This is the problem of induction. Suppose we want to put the theory that all swans are white to the test. We come across a white swan. We cannot validly argue from "here is a white swan" to "all swans are white"; doing so would be to affirm the consequent.

Popper's solution to this problem is to flip it upside down. He noticed that while it is impossible to verify that every swan is white, finding a single black swan shows that not every swan is white. We might tentatively accept the proposal that every swan is white, while looking out for examples of non-white swans that would show our conjecture to be false. This is the basis of critical rationalism.

Falsification uses the valid inference modus tollens: if from a statement P (say some law with some initial condition) we logically deduce Q, but what is observed is neg Q, P is false. For example, given the law "all swans are white" and the initial condition "there is a swan here", we can deduce "the swan here is white", but if what is observed is "the swan here is not white" (say black), then "all swans are white" is false, or it was not a swan.
Questions to be considered and debated:

1) Did the method by which a specified theistic belief was acquired adhere to the principle of falsifiability as described above?

2) If the method of theistic belief formation did not adhere to the principle of falsifiability, what other accessible and logical mechanism would demonstrate if a specified theistic belief is false?

3) When there is no accessible and logical mechanism for determining if a specified theistic belief is false, what is the justification for acquiring and defending this belief given that it places the representative apologists in the impossible position of never having an ability to determine if the belief is mistaken?

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Re: The Necessity of Falsifiability in Belief Formation

Post #51

Post by bluegreenearth »

Thomas Mc Donald wrote: [Replying to post 49 by bluegreenearth]

You appear to dodge the original request you made to Aetixintro.

Belief that no gods exists.= No belief in gods

The same or different? How?
Belief that no gods exist = positive claim

No belief in gods = no claim

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Post #52

Post by Thomas123 »

Thanks bluegreenearth, I am genuinely having a brainfreeze on this.

No belief in gods = no claim

Not even the belief that Gods dont exist.


Take me for example.
I believe there are no fairies.
So therefore, I have this belief which excludes me from type 2.

Surely I can only get into 2, if I've never heard a single jot about a fairy.
Then someone comes up to me and asks me what a fairy is and I say ' What's that?'
The only other way that I can envision getting into the2 fairy queue, is if I have natural immunity to that particular concept either through a cognitive anomaly or an awareness peculiarity that is final.

How do you get into the 2 queue for Atheism?

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Post #53

Post by Tcg »

[Replying to post 52 by Thomas Mc Donald]

It may help you to consider what makes one a theist. A theist is a person who believes in god/gods.

Now imagine putting all those folks in a big box. All who are left outside the box are atheists, or as some prefer, non-theists.

What does it take to be a non-theist? Lack the belief that would qualify them to be a theist, that is, the belief that god/gods exist.

One need not believe that god/gods don't exist to lack belief that they do.

Check out the quote in my signature from fellow member wiploc. It explains this briefly and accurately.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Post #54

Post by bluegreenearth »

[Replying to post 52 by Thomas Mc Donald]

No belief in gods is not equivalent to believing no gods exist. Consider the following analogy:

Imagine there is a wrapped gift box on the table. The size and shape of the box is about the same as a box used to hold an item of jewelry. Because of this similarity, someone believes the gift box contains an item of jewelry. Another person believes there is no jewelry contained within the box and suggests the gift box's similarity to a jewelry box is a deliberate attempt to mislead people. A third person is not inclined to believe anything about what is contained in the gift box because there is insufficient information available to accurately predict what is inside the package.

Belief that jewelry is in the gift box = Belief in god.
Believe that no jewelry is in the gift box = Belief that no gods exist.
No belief about anything which could be contained within the gift box = No belief in any gods.

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Post #55

Post by Thomas123 »

The whole thing is now as clear as mud for me,unfortunately.

The reason I choose a fairy was to accommodate atheist thought which regularly associates God belief with various genres such as ,myths,fables,nursery rhymes, etc.
Apparently I should have employed the use of boxes, a strange choice.

I need to get wiploc's version of things as apparently it explains everything. Please post it. So far I have two versions of the atheistic viewpoint, one of which oscillates between the word lack and the word NO, and the other suggests that we call atheists, nontheists. Please attempt to nail this down for clarity. Try it with the fairy in the box.

I have a simplistic understanding of what an atheist might be.

An atheist is a person who does not believe in any God.

Not believing isn't the same as believing not.wiploc

Sorry, I do not get it!

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Post #56

Post by Tcg »

Thomas Mc Donald wrote:
An atheist is a person who does not believe in any God.
Right. And lacking that belief doesn't require one to believe that god/gods do NOT exist.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Post #57

Post by Tcg »

Thomas Mc Donald wrote:
...the other suggests that we call atheists, nontheists.
Here are my actual words:
  • All who are left outside the box are atheists, or as some prefer, non-theists.

    <bolding added>
No suggestion was given. I simply pointed out the fact that some prefer the term non-theist.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Post #58

Post by bluegreenearth »

[Replying to post 55 by Thomas Mc Donald]

Belief in fairies = Belief in God.
Belief that no fairies exist = Belief that no God exists.
Insufficient evidence to believe fairies exist or believe fairies do not exist - Insufficient evidence to believe God exists or believe God doesn't exist.

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Post #59

Post by benchwarmer »

Thomas Mc Donald wrote: The whole thing is now as clear as mud for me,unfortunately.

The reason I choose a fairy was to accommodate atheist thought which regularly associates God belief with various genres such as ,myths,fables,nursery rhymes, etc.
Apparently I should have employed the use of boxes, a strange choice.

I need to get wiploc's version of things as apparently it explains everything. Please post it. So far I have two versions of the atheistic viewpoint, one of which oscillates between the word lack and the word NO, and the other suggests that we call atheists, nontheists. Please attempt to nail this down for clarity. Try it with the fairy in the box.

I have a simplistic understanding of what an atheist might be.

An atheist is a person who does not believe in any God.

Not believing isn't the same as believing not.wiploc

Sorry, I do not get it!
Perhaps adding the distinction of gnostic and agnostic would help?

Atheism/Theism is about belief.
Gnostic/agnostic is about knowledge.

1) If you claim to know that a god exists you are a gnostic theist.
2) If you claim to simply have belief (but not direct knowledge) that a god exists you are an agnostic theist.
3) If you claim to not believe (but have no direct knowledge) than any gods exist you are an agnostic atheist.
4) If you claim to know no gods exist you are a gnostic atheist.

Or more simply:

1) I KNOW a god exists. I saw Him/Her/It and have direct knowledge of the matter.
2) I BELIEVE a god exists. I have no direct evidence, but I choose to believe anyway.
3) I DON"T BELIEVE any gods exist. I have no direct evidence one way or the other.
4) I KNOW no gods exist. I have direct knowledge of the matter.

Most atheist/non-theist debaters here are in (3).

In other words, most of us are open to the possibility of a god existing, we just don't currently believe any of the stories put forward to date. Most of us also don't believe the big foot stories, the fairy stories, the pixy stories, etc. That is why we often use those other imaginary creatures as a parallel.

Hopefully that helps.

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Post #60

Post by Thomas123 »

[Replying to post 56 by Tcg]

Thomas Mc Donald wrote:
An atheist is a person who does not believe in any God.


Tcg wrote:
Right. And lacking that belief doesn't require one to believe that god/gods do NOT exist.


I do not believe in any fairies.
I have no belief in their non existence./I have belief in their non existence.

And

I do not believe in any fairies.
I find no reason to suggest that they exist.

Have I got it now? Are these positions on fairy belief exactly analogous to the matter in question, ie a definition of an atheist from post 27..Are these positions essentially the same or are they variants of a type. Or am I still not getting it?

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