What is "fairness"?

[otseng]

The issue of "fairness" has been brought up multiple times, especially in regards to non-believers going to an eternal hell.

So, I'm creating this thread to dive into "fairness".

Let's start off by asking several questions:
1. What is fairness?
2. How would something be considered fair or not fair?
3. Why should something being fair be even considered important?
4. Where does our desire for fairness originate?
5. Is it even possible for things to be fair?

These are all the questions I can think of for now, but feel free to add any more to the list.

[Angry McFurious]

The issue of "fairness" has been brought up multiple times, especially in regards to non-believers going to an eternal hell.

So, I'm creating this thread to dive into "fairness".

Let's start off by asking several questions:
1. What is fairness?
2. How would something be considered fair or not fair?
3. Why should something being fair be even considered important?
4. Where does our desire for fairness originate?
5. Is it even possible for things to be fair?

These are all the questions I can think of for now, but feel free to add any more to the list.

1. Giving the Majority what they want (Liberals: look into that one)
2. Giving in to the minority just to make them happy when you make the mojarity angry.
3. It keeps the people happy.
4. Humanity, a society with structure, etc.
5. No way in hel... erhm heck

[Corvus]

The issue of "fairness" has been brought up multiple times, especially in regards to non-believers going to an eternal hell.

So, I'm creating this thread to dive into "fairness".

Let's start off by asking several questions:
1. What is fairness?
2. How would something be considered fair or not fair?
3. Why should something being fair be even considered important?
4. Where does our desire for fairness originate?
5. Is it even possible for things to be fair?

These are all the questions I can think of for now, but feel free to add any more to the list.

1. Giving the Majority what they want (Liberals: look into that one)

No, no, no. If the majority had what they want, we would still have slavery. Black poeple and women would not have any rights. Eugenics, or the sterilisation of usually impoverished undesirables, would still be going on. Or, allow me to make this more direct, it would be fair to destroy a minority if the majority wills it, as in the case of the holocaust.

No. When we speak of governments, fair is usually taken to mean protecting individuals equally. I certainly would not want to be treated unfairly were I a minority. In the case of the general meaning of fairness - outside of the fairness of governments - I would say it means something along the lines of "to treat someone with equality and honesty without motives of undue harm on their persons or properties". Or, to make it simpler, "to treat other people as you yourself wish to be treated, and to expect other people to treat you as you treat them."


2. How would something be considered fair or not fair?

For something to be unfair, one would have to unduly mistreat a person. Who decides what is mistreatment and what would be due or undue is entirely up to the person being mistreated, who should expect to be treated inthe manner they would treat other people.

3. Why should something being fair be even considered important?

... this has me stumped. It really depends on the circumstance. Even animals understand when they are experiencing an injustice. I am trying to find a paper I read on how monkeys, when given unequal amounts of raisins or something, would get angry and even throw them away. Ah, I found it!: http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/200 ... usat_x.htm

It probably can't be considered important to other people, but it is important to the individual unfairly treated. It's also possible that the person unfairly treated will respond in kind, so it is important to the person treating someone unfairly. God has nothing to worry about, however. He could be an absolute tyrant and there is not a damned thing we can do about it.

4. Where does our desire for fairness originate?

Ourselves. We all have a desire for happiness. In a community situation, it is important for social cohesion for a member of the group not to be slighted. That fairness may apply collectively also, so that the entire group will benefit.

5. Is it even possible for things to be fair?

I don't see why not.

[Angry McFurious]

The issue of "fairness" has been brought up multiple times, especially in regards to non-believers going to an eternal hell.

So, I'm creating this thread to dive into "fairness".

Let's start off by asking several questions:
1. What is fairness?
2. How would something be considered fair or not fair?
3. Why should something being fair be even considered important?
4. Where does our desire for fairness originate?
5. Is it even possible for things to be fair?

These are all the questions I can think of for now, but feel free to add any more to the list.

1. Giving the Majority what they want (Liberals: look into that one)

No, no, no. If the majority had what they want, we would still have slavery. Black poeple and women would not have any rights. Eugenics, or the sterilisation of usually impoverished undesirables, would still be going on. Or, allow me to make this more direct, it would be fair to destroy a minority if the majority wills it, as in the case of the holocaust.

No. When we speak of governments, fair is usually taken to mean protecting individuals equally. I certainly would not want to be treated unfairly were I a minority. In the case of the general meaning of fairness - outside of the fairness of governments - I would say it means something along the lines of "to treat someone with equality and honesty without motives of undue harm on their persons or properties". Or, to make it simpler, "to treat other people as you yourself wish to be treated, and to expect other people to treat you as you treat them."


2. How would something be considered fair or not fair?

For something to be unfair, one would have to unduly mistreat a person. Who decides what is mistreatment and what would be due or undue is entirely up to the person being mistreated, who should expect to be treated inthe manner they would treat other people.

3. Why should something being fair be even considered important?

... this has me stumped. It really depends on the circumstance. Even animals understand when they are experiencing an injustice. I am trying to find a paper I read on how monkeys, when given unequal amounts of raisins or something, would get angry and even throw them away. Ah, I found it!: http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/200 ... usat_x.htm

It probably can't be considered important to other people, but it is important to the individual unfairly treated. It's also possible that the person unfairly treated will respond in kind, so it is important to the person treating someone unfairly. God has nothing to worry about, however. He could be an absolute tyrant and there is not a damned thing we can do about it.

4. Where does our desire for fairness originate?

Ourselves. We all have a desire for happiness. In a community situation, it is important for social cohesion for a member of the group not to be slighted. That fairness may apply collectively also, so that the entire group will benefit.

5. Is it even possible for things to be fair?

I don't see why not.

Slavery? I bet 99% of the country disagrees with slavery. I'm talking about the current 2004. Even back then the North out numbered the South and would have gotten rid of slavery anyhow. I'm not trying to make a raciest or biast issue out of it at all. Your twisting my words. I'm hoping society will out in MORALS with the fairness. I mean when you get to something so basic suck as this you can twist it around more ways then once.

I'm all about equality but don;t lift up a minority just to make yourself look like a better person.

Try not to take it the way I think you took it. I'm saying liberal america wants to help minoritys more when thats not fair because everyone needs a hand.

FAIR. not racial.

[Corvus]

The issue of "fairness" has been brought up multiple times, especially in regards to non-believers going to an eternal hell.

So, I'm creating this thread to dive into "fairness".

Let's start off by asking several questions:
1. What is fairness?
2. How would something be considered fair or not fair?
3. Why should something being fair be even considered important?
4. Where does our desire for fairness originate?
5. Is it even possible for things to be fair?

These are all the questions I can think of for now, but feel free to add any more to the list.

1. Giving the Majority what they want (Liberals: look into that one)

No, no, no. If the majority had what they want, we would still have slavery. Black poeple and women would not have any rights. Eugenics, or the sterilisation of usually impoverished undesirables, would still be going on. Or, allow me to make this more direct, it would be fair to destroy a minority if the majority wills it, as in the case of the holocaust.

No. When we speak of governments, fair is usually taken to mean protecting individuals equally. I certainly would not want to be treated unfairly were I a minority. In the case of the general meaning of fairness - outside of the fairness of governments - I would say it means something along the lines of "to treat someone with equality and honesty without motives of undue harm on their persons or properties". Or, to make it simpler, "to treat other people as you yourself wish to be treated, and to expect other people to treat you as you treat them."


2. How would something be considered fair or not fair?

For something to be unfair, one would have to unduly mistreat a person. Who decides what is mistreatment and what would be due or undue is entirely up to the person being mistreated, who should expect to be treated inthe manner they would treat other people.

3. Why should something being fair be even considered important?

... this has me stumped. It really depends on the circumstance. Even animals understand when they are experiencing an injustice. I am trying to find a paper I read on how monkeys, when given unequal amounts of raisins or something, would get angry and even throw them away. Ah, I found it!: http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/200 ... usat_x.htm

It probably can't be considered important to other people, but it is important to the individual unfairly treated. It's also possible that the person unfairly treated will respond in kind, so it is important to the person treating someone unfairly. God has nothing to worry about, however. He could be an absolute tyrant and there is not a damned thing we can do about it.

4. Where does our desire for fairness originate?

Ourselves. We all have a desire for happiness. In a community situation, it is important for social cohesion for a member of the group not to be slighted. That fairness may apply collectively also, so that the entire group will benefit.

5. Is it even possible for things to be fair?

I don't see why not.

Slavery? I bet 99% of the country disagrees with slavery. I'm talking about the current 2004. Even back then the North out numbered the South and would have gotten rid of slavery anyhow. I'm not trying to make a raciest or biast issue out of it at all. Your twisting my words. I'm hoping society will out in MORALS with the fairness. I mean when you get to something so basic suck as this you can twist it around more ways then once.

I am trying to understand some of your sentences. I do not understand "I'm hoping societ will out in MORALS with the fairness"

What I am saying, through my drastic examples is what the majority wants is not necessarily the best thing all the time. A majority was, at one time, opposed to women's suffrage, and a majority at one time was opposed to black suffrage and segregation. And at one time, a majority would have accepted slavery. The majority has a poor record of recognising wrong and right because, if the majority is content, they will sanction almost anything.

Slavery? I bet 99% of the country disagrees with slavery. I'm talking about the current 2004

How about the 18th or early 19th centuries? And how was something fair then?

This is not twisting your words. This is a fault in your definition. You say that what the majority wants is fair. In this case, if the majority of Iraq would like an Islamic government, it would only be fair to give it to them. Or, if the majority of Arab nations want to continue hostilities with Israel, then it's only fair. Abortion could be fair if the majority decides it. So would pollution.

Also, the reason most "liberals" focus on minority groups is due to the fact that, by the fact of being a minority, they cannot otherwise make themselves heard.

[Angry McFurious]

Ok you didn;t even quote the rest of what I had to say about slavery in there.

Yes it is twisting words around.

This is my point you can never be fair in society.
You believe this I don;t
Lets settle on that

Because for some reason 100 years ago when a black man picks a cotten feild seems to have something to do with this convo. it doesn;t.

[Illyricum]

5. Is it even possible for things to be fair?

It's so hard to say. What may seem fair to one person may not be for another. Who's to say? Personally, philosophy is too mind boggling.

[ST88]

1. What is fairness?
For Americans, fairness is tied up with our justice system. We often make allusions to legal arguments even when we are discussing the most mundane matters. For centuries fairness was thought to be handed down from lords or magistrates, because they must know what's good for us all. Now we have the individual determining what is fair and what is not, and it largely comes from legal and logical argument.

The idea of Hell, for example, is ipso facto unfair because the punishment does not fit the crime.

2. How would something be considered fair or not fair?
Unfairness is caught up in our ideals of equality before the law -- no one should get special treatment because of who they are or who they know. We would consider a law fair if it applies equally to all transgressors, such as a speed limit; or if it seeks to right the balance between different citizen groups, such as affirmative action (we can debate that later).

Similarly, we would say someone is being unfair if they apply rules or policies unevenly, according to cronyism or whim or the like.

3. Why should something being fair be even considered important?
The importance of fairness has to do with keeping the peace between people or nations. But it's always tempered by circumstance. Is it fair that the world's largest deposits of crude petroleum lies underneath an oppressive fiefdom in the Middle East? In this sense, it is fair because that's just the circumstance of what happened. The importance of fairness is perceived as our innate judgment of justice, something we learned from outside of ourselves. We learn that whatever it is we call "fate" is not only fickle, but effectively and reasonably random. It is therefore reasonable to assume that those deposits could have been anywhere on the globe, and it's just dumb luck that they wound up there.

4. Where does our desire for fairness originate?
As I understand it, what we think of as "fairness" is actually a communal desire to eliminate envy. Jesus' Parable of the Vineyard has always fascinated me because it deals directly with this aspect. The late-comers who get the same wage as the early-comers seems like a justifiable outrage, until you realize that a bargain is a bargain. The deal that you make with the owner of the vineyard was of your own making. This is the whole purpose behind socialism and unions, to legislate fairness in wages and lifestyle, to eliminate envy.

In capitalism, we have decided that fairness relates to how hard someone works at fitting themselves into the system. We admire someone who works hard to get rich and think it's fair for them to have done so. We don't admire inherited money so much, but, again, that's just circumstance.

In my opinion, this version, and all versions of fairness are learned from a greater society. Separated from it, I don't think we would have these notions within ourselves. Abused children do not speak up about the unfairness of their abuse until they learn just how wrong it is. They will often blame themselves for "being wrong" and deserving the punishment. We won't know that our deal with the vineyard owner is unfair until we find out that someone else got a better deal. The perception of fairness is relative to the larger society.

5. Is it even possible for things to be fair?
Sure it is. That doesn't mean it happens in every case. And our judgments of fairness are always changing.

[dangerdan]

Interesting points guys and gals.

If I can, otseng, can I add another element to the debate which would bring it back to a religious theme.

Question – Using the aforementioned definitions and issues regarding fairness (or just a dictionary definition or a bible definition), are the following cases considered fair, or disgustingly unfair –

-God cursing all woman with painful child birth for the actions of a woman we have never met (Adam and Eve)

-God cursing humans with congenital evilness from the actions of two people we have never met (Adam and Eve)

-God willfully letting destruction and death come to the earth, fully capable of stopping it, but didn’t because of his “principals”. (Adam and Eve)

-God murdering most of life on earth (The Flood)

-God sending people to hell punishment for thinking that the salvation story a bunch of mumbo-jumbo, and even perhaps sending them to hell for not even hearing it? (I am the way the truth and the light, no one enters the father except through me)

If this is deviating too much on the original theme, please disregard this post.

[otseng]

Interesting points guys and gals.

If I can, otseng, can I add another element to the debate which would bring it back to a religious theme.

If this is deviating too much on the original theme, please disregard this post.

I would perhaps suggest not addressing these specific instances in this thread. Answering such questions as these is what brings us into this root question, "What is fair"? And I feel this topic alone could be quite lengthy.

Also, in the cases you cited, there are also other foundational issues, such as free will, justice, judgement, consequences of sin, et al. So, discussing those cases could easily dilute this thread by moving into those areas.

So, feel free to start other threads on the specific issues you brought up. But, in this thread, let's just focus on the issue of fairness.