A Promise Unkept

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Miles
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A Promise Unkept

Post #1

Post by Miles »

Matthew 18:19 came up in a discussion the other day. It was being argued that while at one time god may have cared about mankind, he has since lost all interest in us, As evidence is his complete disregard of the promise he made (in his persona as Jesus) to grant prayers. It was pointed out that as much as peace on earth was prayed for, god has never grated it. That no matter how much two parents prayed for the recovery of their dying child, god let her die anyway. That no matter how much two children prayed for the return of their runaway pet Rover, god never saw fit to bring him back

Because a scriptural passage may read differently depending on which Bible one reads, I've listed six slightly different versions here so as to make it clear what Jesus is saying.

Matthew 18:19
(ERV)
To say it another way, if two of you on earth agree on anything you pray for, my Father in heaven will do what you ask.

(NABRE)
Again, [amen,] I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father.

(NRSV)
Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

(KJV)
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

(NMB)
Again I say to you, if two of you agree in earth about any manner of thing, whatsoever they desire, it shall be given them by my Father who is in heaven.

(RSVCE)
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.



So, what do you think happened here?

A) Jesus was wrong and misspoke about what his alter ego would do.

B) Jesus didn't misspeak, but somewhere down the line god the father changed his mind.

.

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Re: A Promise Unkept

Post #2

Post by JehovahsWitness »

C) Jesus was not speaking in the absolute.

MATTHEW 18:19 - NRSV

Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.


ANYTHING :Jesus was not speaking in the absolute his promise was based on unspoken limits, notably that prayers contrary to Gods will and purpose would not be granted. The "anything" means "anything that doesn't violate divine standards" not absolutely anything.

To illustrate: If someone prays for help to rape a baby, prays ernestly that everyone blasphemes God's own name or that God should reject Jesus and replace him with Satan, was Jesus saying that such requests would be granted by his Father? Of course not! It is reasonable then to conclude the point was that those that respect God and prayed in harmony with Gods will would always receive the answer to their prayers.
1 JOHN 5:14 -NO

This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us..










JW

FURTHER READING: Prayer Will God Hear and Answer?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -god-hear/

RELATED POSTS
Mat 21:22 Does God promise to grant absolutely all requests?
viewtopic.php?p=808498#p808498

WHY do people pray?
viewtopic.php?p=337461#p337461

Why pray for others?
viewtopic.php?p=898930#p898930
For more, please go to other posts related to...

PRAYER, GOD, and ....WORSHIP
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:34 pm, edited 9 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: A Promise Unkept

Post #3

Post by Sojournerofthearth »

[Replying to Miles in post #1]

Good Evening Miles,

I think you might be misunderstanding what Matthew 18:19 is saying. In the context of that verse, the chapter begins with the disciples asking, Who will be the greatest in the Kingdom of heaven? And Jesus calls a small child to him and says, the greatest in the Kingdom is as humble as a child, and if one should make one of my little children stumble, I would take great offense at that. The world is full of stumbling blocks, but we do not set out to do that to each other, knowing that God beholds each of your faces and takes no pleasure in the stumbling of them,
But if an offense should come, then go to your brother and talk it out, If a meeting of the minds cannot be attained, bring a friend and a mediator in an effort to come to an agreement. If there is no way to make it work, then take it before the Church and if one refuses to abide by the consensus, then he should leave the congregation. But all of this should be done in the context of humility and outgoing concern for each other, and whatever agreement is made in regard to the dispute will be bound in heaven (God holds us to our words) and if you decide to let it go, it is released in heaven. Whatever you make an agreement to is binding, whatever is asked. God will hold you to it. Because when you are gathered in my name, I am there among you.

But in regard to prayers answered, we don't order God to do our bidding. He's not our genie, I've seen God heal. I've seen Him intervene in storms. I've seen Him step into my life and make the impossible happen. I know that with God, all things are possible. But prayers are answered according to His plan and in His time. I am His servant. He is not mine. But this passage isn't about prayer, it is about being kind toward each other in an outgoing way. It is about being tender hearted toward mankind, as God is toward us. It is about keeping our word with each other. It is about how to deal with a brother, as we would have God deal with us.

Soj

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Re: A Promise Unkept

Post #4

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:49 pm
C) Jesus was not speaking in the absolute.
Then please point out the conditional in "if two of you on earth agree on anything you pray for, my Father in heaven will do what you ask."
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:49 pm
Meaning: His promise was based on unspoken limits, notably that prayers contrary to Gods will and purpose would not be granted.
Nope. Jesus said "anything," and without qualification. But pretending that some prayers are rejected because they're contrary to god's will and purpose, what of all those billions upon billions of prayers that were not contrary to god's will and purpose yet have gone ungranted? ---and please, no claims of a "will and purpose" so broad that it excludes just about all of the billions upon billions of requests. In fact, if god's "will and purpose" was such a game changer Jesus would not have said "anything," or do so without qualification. Nope. Either

Jesus was wrong and misspoke about what his alter ego would do.

OR

Jesus didn't misspeak, but somewhere down the line god the father changed his mind.


JehovahsWitness wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:49 pm
MATTHEW 18:19 - NRSV

Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.
FURTHER READING: Prayer Will God Hear and Answer?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -god-hear/

RELATED POSTS
Mat 21:22 Does God promise to grant absolutely all requests?
viewtopic.php?p=808498#p808498

WHY do people pray?
viewtopic.php?p=337461#p337461

Why pray for others?
viewtopic.php?p=898930#p898930
Unfortunately, there's MATTHEW 18:19 sitting just out side your door that says none of what you've posted makes any difference. "Again, [amen,] I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father." And anything you post that attempts to pervert MATTHEW 18:19 is just bad apologetics.

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Re: A Promise Unkept

Post #5

Post by Miles »

Sojournerofthearth wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:58 pm
[Replying to Miles in post #1]

Good Evening Miles,

I think you might be misunderstanding what Matthew 18:19 is saying. In the context of that verse, the chapter begins with the disciples asking, Who will be the greatest in the Kingdom of heaven? And Jesus calls a small child to him and says, the greatest in the Kingdom is as humble as a child, and if one should make one of my little children stumble, I would take great offense at that. The world is full of stumbling blocks, but we do not set out to do that to each other, knowing that God beholds each of your faces and takes no pleasure in the stumbling of them,
But if an offense should come, then go to your brother and talk it out, If a meeting of the minds cannot be attained, bring a friend and a mediator in an effort to come to an agreement. If there is no way to make it work, then take it before the Church and if one refuses to abide by the consensus, then he should leave the congregation. But all of this should be done in the context of humility and outgoing concern for each other, and whatever agreement is made in regard to the dispute will be bound in heaven (God holds us to our words) and if you decide to let it go, it is released in heaven. Whatever you make an agreement to is binding, whatever is asked. God will hold you to it. Because when you are gathered in my name, I am there among you.
Sorry, but I fail to see any pertinenant relevance to verse 19.

Sojournerofthearth wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:58 pm
But in regard to prayers answered, we don't order God to do our bidding. He's not our genie, I've seen God heal. I've seen Him intervene in storms. I've seen Him step into my life and make the impossible happen. I know that with God, all things are possible.
And I believe that all these acts you claim were god's work rest in your imagination.

Sojournerofthearth wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:58 pm
But prayers are answered according to His plan and in His time. I am His servant. He is not mine. But this passage isn't about prayer, it is about being kind toward each other in an outgoing way.
Of course it isn't about prayer. If it was it wouldn't use the word "pray." Image

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Re: A Promise Unkept

Post #6

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:20 am
..what of all those billions upon billions of prayers that were not contrary to god's will and purpose yet have gone ungranted?
Most prayers are in fact contrary to Gods will and puprose. All sincere prayers that are not are promised not to be granted but ...an answer: the answer may be "Yes", "No" or .... "Later"



Image

People sometimes need help to recognise the answer to their prayers.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS







FURTHER READING:

PRAYERS
WHY do people pray?
viewtopic.php?p=337461#p337461

Why pray for others?
viewtopic.php?p=898930#p898930

Can we influence God with our prayers?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 33#p898933

Why did Jesus fall to his knees in the Garden of Gethsemene when praying?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 39#p800339

Does one have to pray in Jesus name?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 41#p885441

ANSWERS

Mat 18:22 Did Jesus break his promise to grant his followers ANYTHING they ask for?
viewtopic.php?p=1015982#p1015982

Mat 21:22 Does God promise to grant absolutely all requests?
viewtopic.php?p=808498#p808498

HOW does God communicate with those that pray to him?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 22#p990422
For more, please go to other posts related to...

PRAYER, GOD, and ....WORSHIP
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: A Promise Unkept

Post #7

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:35 am
Miles wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:20 am
..what of all those billions upon billions of prayers that were not contrary to god's will and purpose yet have gone ungranted?
Most prayers are in fact contrary to Gods will and puprose. All sincere prayers that are not are promised not to be granted but ...an answer: the answer may be "Yes", "No" or .... "Later"
Your last sentence isn't making sense, but if I happen to have gotten it right . . . if you reread closely, I was not talking about those prayers that "are in fact contrary to Gods will and purpose," but "prayers that were not contrary to god's will and purpose yet have gone ungranted." God's "NO" is unacceptable, and "later" is irrelevant. Jesus's remark leaves no room for "no."

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Re: A Promise Unkept

Post #8

Post by Sojournerofthearth »

[Replying to Miles in post #5]

Good Afternoon Miles,
Miles wrote:
Sorry, but I fail to see any pertinenant relevance to verse 19.
(Matthew 18:18 Murdock)Verily I say to you, That whatever ye shall bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven: and whatever ye shall unbind on earth, shall be unbound in heaven.
(Matthew 18:19 Murdock)Again I say to you, That if two of you shall agree on earth concerning any thing that they shall ask, it shall be to them from my Father who is in heaven.
(Matthew 18:20 Murdock)For where two or three are assembled in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Young's Literal Translation)

Jesus isn't saying he will give them anything they ask Him for, he is saying, any agreement they all make in unison, He will hold them to, the agreement between them will be as an agreement between them and God.
Miles wrote:
And I believe that all these acts you claim were god's work rest in your imagination.
:heart: Guess that's for me to know and you to find out.

Soj

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Re: A Promise Unkept

Post #9

Post by Miles »

Sojournerofthearth wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:43 pm
Jesus isn't saying he will give them anything they ask Him for, he is saying, any agreement they all make in unison, He will hold them to, the agreement between them will be as an agreement between them and God.
It doesn't say this at all.

Verse 18 says that whatever you forbid, or declare to be improper and unlawful on earth has already been done so in heaven. And whatever you permit, or declare lawful on earth has already been done in heaven.

.............Matthew 18:18(AMP)
............. "I assure you and most solemnly say to you, whatever you bind [forbid, declare to be improper and unlawful] on earth
.............shall have [already] been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose [permit, declare lawful] on earth shall have [already] been loosed in heaven."


Verse 19 then goes on to simply say that anything one asks or prays for will be granted by god.

.............Matthew 18:19 (KJV21)
.............“Again I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth concerning anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in Heaven."

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Re: A Promise Unkept

Post #10

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:33 pm
. . if you reread closely, I was not talking about those prayers that "are in fact contrary to Gods will and purpose," but "prayers that were not contrary to god's will and purpose yet have gone ungranted."
And do you claim to know what god's will and purpose is at any given time?





JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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