A Promise Unkept

[Miles]

Matthew 18:19 came up in a discussion the other day. It was being argued that while at one time god may have cared about mankind, he has since lost all interest in us, As evidence is his complete disregard of the promise he made (in his persona as Jesus) to grant prayers. It was pointed out that as much as peace on earth was prayed for, god has never granted it. That no matter how much two parents prayed for the recovery of their dying child, god let her die anyway. That no matter how much two children prayed for the return of their runaway pet Rover, god never saw fit to bring him back

Because a scriptural passage may read differently depending on which Bible one reads, I've listed six slightly different versions here so as to make it clear what Jesus is saying.

Matthew 18:19
(ERV)
To say it another way, if two of you on earth agree on anything you pray for, my Father in heaven will do what you ask.

(NABRE)
Again, [amen,] I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father.

(NRSV)
Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

(KJV)
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

(NMB)
Again I say to you, if two of you agree in earth about any manner of thing, whatsoever they desire, it shall be given them by my Father who is in heaven.

(RSVCE)
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.



So, what do you think happened here?

A) Jesus was wrong and misspoke about what his alter ego would do.

B) Jesus didn't misspeak, but somewhere down the line god the father changed his mind.

.

[nobspeople]

There's always excuses to why prayers don't get answered.

There are no excuses. If you never see answer to your prayer, then no is the answer. Or perhaps you got an answer you didn't want to hear or one that did come in the way you wanted it. The mystery to most is why the answer is no. It's a mystery because they do not accept or do not know the will of Jehovah God. There are prayers God doesn't even listen to. (John 9:31, Proverbs 28:9, 1 Peter 3:12)

Those are all excuses. If you see them that way. Or they're reasons. If you see them that way.

[Revelations won]

As I reviewed the many responses on this topic my observation is that each and every one of us has a personal responsibility to clearly know the things of God personally.

“For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him.Even so, the things of God knoweth no man but the spirit of God.”

That being the case, does it not stand to reason that we must so live so that we may be found worthy to receive the teachings of the Holy Ghost to clearly comprehend the things of God?

Do the scriptures clearly teach that the spirit will teach us all things?

If this be the case, then all the opinions and philosophies of man which are countless may be of little value.

There is an irrevocable law in heaven upon which all blessings are predicated and whenever we receive a blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Does this place great responsibility upon each individual to carefully examine ourselves and carefully ponder our pleas to God so that we do not ask amiss?

Did not even the Apostles need to learn a lesson on why they could not perform a certain miracle? They asked the Master why they did not have the power to accomplish the task.

Was his answer simply “this kind cometh not out, but by prayer and fasting”?

In other words, acting in his capacity as an illustrator of the law”, did he not clearly demonstrate what was required to accomplish the task?

I hope this gives some helpful food for thought about what may be required of us by the Lord to do “the Father’s will” as shown by the Lord.

Kind regards,
RW

[2timothy316]

There's always excuses to why prayers don't get answered.

There are no excuses. If you never see answer to your prayer, then no is the answer. Or perhaps you got an answer you didn't want to hear or one that did come in the way you wanted it. The mystery to most is why the answer is no. It's a mystery because they do not accept or do not know the will of Jehovah God. There are prayers God doesn't even listen to. (John 9:31, Proverbs 28:9, 1 Peter 3:12)

Those are all excuses. If you see them that way. Or they're reasons. If you see them that way.

I know what Jehovah God wants and what prayers He will listen to and the ones He will not. I also have a pretty good idea of what will be answered and what will not. There are no excuses, reasons...yes I can see there are reasons why. What is your excuse or reason for not knowing His reasons? Did you ask 'why' long ago only to have someone wrongly tell you no one can know God's plans for an individual, mankind and the Earth? Has so much time has past without the answer you wanted or the time frame you wanted to hear that you now just conclude, God doesn't keep His promises? Did you ever think that their could be a resister to God out there that wants you and everyone to think precisely that?

[nobspeople]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #54]

I know what Jehovah God wants...I also have a pretty good idea of what will be answered and what will not.

It's good you think that, but I don't think it's possible. Might be, but highly doubt it.

what prayers He will listen to and the ones He will not.

That's a new one on me: what he will NOT listen to? Seems rather rude and not what a loving god would do, TBH; choosing what to listen to and what he won't? At least that's what I understood you to say - please correct me if I misunderstood (which is possible).

There are no excuses

I find that to be nothing but an opinion. But that's par for the course so I will understand it as an opinion.

What is your excuse or reason for not knowing His reasons? Did you ask 'why' long ago only to have someone wrongly tell you no one can know God's plans for an individual, mankind and the Earth? Has so much time has past without the answer you wanted or the time frame you wanted to hear that you now just conclude, God doesn't keep His promises? Did you ever think that their could be a resister to God out there that wants you and everyone to think precisely that?

Assuming all these are real questions:
What is your excuse or reason for not knowing His reasons? - I don't believe any imperfect being can truly understand what a perfect being wants. No one online will be able to convince me otherwise as it goes against the very nature of perfect vs imperfect. In other words, a flawed mind can't comprehend what a mind (that's perfection in every way) thinks or wants. Impossible.
Did you ask 'why' long ago only to have someone wrongly tell you no one can know God's plans for an individual, mankind and the Earth? I've asked many, many things over the years. I've been given opinions and 'truths', most of which made zero sense (thought, TBH, not some made sense - albeit in a masochistic way). When I've asked God, I got nothing. Nada. Zero. Zip. At least, nothing that I can truly attribute to God. Sure, I could have seen a response and could say 'Well, that was God" but I can't honestly say I believe that without any doubt. Possible? Sure. Absolute? No chance.
Has so much time has past without the answer you wanted or the time frame you wanted to hear that you now just conclude, God doesn't keep His promises? I'm open to a perfect, all powerful being that can show me enough proof (for me) to believe. After decades, that has yet to happen.
Did you ever think that their could be a resister to God out there that wants you and everyone to think precisely that? I can honestly say I don't understand what you're asking or mean here so I can't provide a response other than that at this time.

[Tcg]

I know what Jehovah God wants and what prayers He will listen to and the ones He will not.

That's quite an astonishing claim.

I also have a pretty good idea of what will be answered and what will not.

I do too. Requests that are outside the odds of random chance will never happen. Those that fall within the odds of random chance will be fulfilled at the exact rate they would occur by random chance.


Tcg

[2timothy316]

I know what Jehovah God wants and what prayers He will listen to and the ones He will not.

That's quite an astonishing claim.

Um anyone that reads and studies the Bible daily can make the same claim. It's not like I come up with this all on my own. There is clear direction on what to pray for and what not to pray for, what will be listened to and what will not. It saddens me that people are astonished at this, as it means they haven't been taught little or nothing from the Bible. Rather they have been taught proprietary religious dogma and tradition.

I also have a pretty good idea of what will be answered and what will not.

I do too. Requests that are outside the odds of random chance will never happen. Those that fall within the odds of random chance will be fulfilled at the exact rate they would occur by random chance.

Sure if your god is chance and luck.

Yet from my God, using the Bible that He has given to all mankind, I can tell someone the likeliness of something being answered or not by asking a few questions.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #54]

I know what Jehovah God wants...I also have a pretty good idea of what will be answered and what will not.

It's good you think that, but I don't think it's possible. Might be, but highly doubt it.

I have a Bible, that is all I need. Anyone that studies and reads the Bible daily can do it. It's not like I come up with the answers on my own.

what prayers He will listen to and the ones He will not.

That's a new one on me: what he will NOT listen to? Seems rather rude and not what a loving god would do, TBH; choosing what to listen to and what he won't? At least that's what I understood you to say - please correct me if I misunderstood (which is possible).

Are you a father? You do understand that you shouldn't give a child everything they ask for right? If a father did do that he would be neither loving or kind. Naive children think their every request should be fulfilled. Once a person reaches maturity understands why their parents didn't give them everything. There is even an example in the Bible where one of God's own preachers and teachers could heal people and even raise the dead. Yet that same person couldn't heal his own sickness that he called a, "thorn in the flesh". (2 Cor. 12:6-10) His request was heard and the answer was no.

Yet an unrighteous person's prayer will not be heard at all. Which is why I cited those scriptures in my last post as an example of whose prayers are not listened to.

Do you know what an unrighteous person is? They do not heed the first and most important commandment. “You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.”​—Matthew 22:37. The Israelites were doing many unrighteous things. Their prayers were unheard because while they were going through the motions of worship, they would turn around and sell a poor person into slavery for a pair of sandals. (Amos 8:6)

Do you think a person like that should have their prayers heard?

This is why knowing the Bible is so important. You can use it to know how to get your prayers heard and answered. And yes, the answer might be no or you're going to have wait. If we are not self-absorbed thinking we should be the center of God's universe like a spoiled child, then we will accept His decision.

There are no excuses

I find that to be nothing but an opinion. But that's par for the course so I will understand it as an opinion.

What is your excuse or reason for not knowing His reasons? Did you ask 'why' long ago only to have someone wrongly tell you no one can know God's plans for an individual, mankind and the Earth? Has so much time has past without the answer you wanted or the time frame you wanted to hear that you now just conclude, God doesn't keep His promises? Did you ever think that their could be a resister to God out there that wants you and everyone to think precisely that?

Assuming all these are real questions:
What is your excuse or reason for not knowing His reasons? - I don't believe any imperfect being can truly understand what a perfect being wants. No one online will be able to convince me otherwise as it goes against the very nature of perfect vs imperfect. In other words, a flawed mind can't comprehend what a mind (that's perfection in every way) thinks or wants. Impossible.

Your belief is noted. Though a Bible reference would be nice to support your belief.

Did you ask 'why' long ago only to have someone wrongly tell you no one can know God's plans for an individual, mankind and the Earth? I've asked many, many things over the years. I've been given opinions and 'truths', most of which made zero sense (thought, TBH, not some made sense - albeit in a masochistic way). When I've asked God, I got nothing. Nada. Zero. Zip. At least, nothing that I can truly attribute to God. Sure, I could have seen a response and could say 'Well, that was God" but I can't honestly say I believe that without any doubt. Possible? Sure. Absolute? No chance.

Do read and study the Bible daily? If not, then that is why you have got nothing. God communicates to us through His Word. All of my answers have come through my studies and other people's shared study of the Bible. If you wish, what was your question and I can show you a Biblical answer. However, if you want a detailed answer then a true love of Jehovah and study of the Bible is the only way to get those types of answers. A personal relationship is the only way to go. Yet if you believe that a perfect being can't teach you an imperfect being anything, then you'll never have answers.

Just so you know the Bible says, “Keep on asking, and it will be given you; keep on seeking, and you will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you. For everyone asking receives, and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking it will be opened.” (Matt. 7:7, 8) This will only be true if a person haven't given up and the humility to accept the answers they find.

Has so much time has past without the answer you wanted or the time frame you wanted to hear that you now just conclude, God doesn't keep His promises?

I'm open to a perfect, all powerful being that can show me enough proof (for me) to believe. After decades, that has yet to happen.[/quote]
You know, the Bible recorded that people saw Jesus resurrect people from the dead and yet they still didn't believe Jesus was God's Son. Why? Because it wasn't the proof they demanded. You have proof all around us. However, there are people out there do not accept what proof is available, much like the Jews of Jesus' time.

For all of us for now, we have only have two books to as proof. We have the figurative book of creation (the universe) and the Bible. (Romans 1:20, 2 Timothy 3:16)
If people will not believe what is contained in these books then there is only one last thing that will. It's called the day of distress AKA Armageddon. That is described in Jeremiah 16:21, "Therefore here I am causing them to know; at this one time I shall cause them to know my hand and my mightiness, and they will have to know that my name is Jehovah.”

Don't let that be your proof. For many, only at the end of their life will they understand who God is.

Did you ever think that their could be a resister to God out there that wants you and everyone to think precisely that? I can honestly say I don't understand what you're asking or mean here so I can't provide a response other than that at this time.

I have come to understand that you don't trust God or that their is a God. Have you ever considered that there is a being or resister to God that wants you belief God is untrustworthy? Are you aware know to know for sure? The answer is in my post.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #58]

Anyone that studies and reads the Bible daily can do it. It's not like I come up with the answers on my own.

I would suspect everything you come up with is from you and or others that have had a part in your life, not from any ultimate being. Having said that, anyone can take something and make something of it. Rather or not it's true or accurate is something else altogether. I suppose, in 'knowing what God wants', I think it's arrogant, at the very least, for anyone to make that claim. Unless, of course, they have a perfect understanding of all things. Which no one does. But if it make someone feel good about themselves to say "I know what God wants", and so long as that person doesn't try to force what they 'know' on to others, seems OK to me. Other than that, we will have to agree to disagree.

Are you a father?

Again, comparing a perfect, all knowing all powerful being to a flawed being, while all we can compare it to, is ultimately illogical IMO.
[quote\Do you think a person like that [unrighteous] should have their prayers heard?[/quote] That makes so little sense really. How could God hear ANY prayers is he doesn't listen to the unrighteous? At some point, isn't everyone unrighteous? In other words, if God doesn't listen to the unrighteous, he will never hear any prayer as no one is born righteous - at least that's what I was taught in church. I suppose it's possible another sect has difference views - seems they all do which, itself, questions the whole concept to me and many others. But that's another topic I'd guess.

Though a Bible reference would be nice to support your belief.

I'd cite most of the entire work. I've spent many, many, many, many years listening and living the life only to be met with almost total disappointment, more questions and further doubt. I've learned that many believers are some of the most closed minded people alive. Anything they're presented with for support of the opposite of their belief, they cast doubt on it and or ignore it totally. Not all, but many.

Do read and study the Bible daily?

Not currently, no. But I did. For a long, long time.

If not, then that is why you have got nothing.

Define 'nothing'. I want to make sure I understand how you're using it here.

God communicates to us through His Word.

Define 'Word' as being used here. Bible or a combination of different techniques?

All of my answers have come through my studies and other people's shared study of the Bible.

You're putting a lot of faith in your ability and the ability of others. Which, of course, we all do to various ways. It just seems to me that, for something as important as eternal life, God would want a more direct, less flawed way of communicating with his children than using other, flawed, imperfect children. But circular reasoning is what a lot of Christianity is based on (the bible proving itself to be true, is one example) so I guess, maybe, that's the best ya' got to use? Can't fault people for that I suppose.

the Bible recorded that people saw Jesus resurrect people from the dead and yet they still didn't believe Jesus was God's Son. Why? Because it wasn't the proof they demanded.

Everyone has their own proof (assuming those stories are true). You have yours, I have mine, Bill has his, Mary has hers, on and on and on. So it should be of no surprise that (again, if true) one person seeing something isn't proof for them does NOT mean it wouldn't be proof for another, now does it? That's illogical and, dare I say, another excuse: "Well it didn't work for them so it won't work for you or anyone else!" = EXCUSE

I have come to understand that you don't trust God or that their is a God.

Not totally. I fully support the idea that there may be a god, but, at least from the test of Christianity that I spend most of my life in, I don't see their god.

Have you ever considered that there is a being or resister to God that wants you belief God is untrustworthy?

I don't understand exactly what you mean here so I can't comment further until clarification is received.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #58]

Anyone that studies and reads the Bible daily can do it. It's not like I come up with the answers on my own.

I would suspect everything you come up with is from you and or others that have had a part in your life, not from any ultimate being.{/quote]You are free to suspect all you wish. Yet if you haven't spent years studying the Bible how do you know what you should or shouldn't suspect because you are minus a ton of Bible knowledge? How do you know how much of 'what I came up with' came from the Bible and how much didn't? If one thinks, "I am lacking knowledge then everyone must be missing the same knowledge" is a fallacious argument because how do you know unless you examine the other fellas data?

Having said that, anyone can take something and make something of it.

That is not the issue as what I have made of studying the Bible. The issue is have YOU studied the Bible to make something of it?

Rather or not it's true or accurate is something else altogether. I suppose, in 'knowing what God wants', I think it's arrogant, at the very least, for anyone to make that claim.

Well, it could be said those that do not know despite a whole Book on the subject to teach them is naive. Not just naive, but voluntarily so. I have the same information available to me as you do. Just because others decided to reach out for it and others fear that information, why are the ones that reach for it arrogant?

Unless, of course, they have a perfect understanding of all things. Which no one does.

The thread is not about "all things" is it? It is about prayer. Do not think that a perfect God can teach an imperfect person what prayers are acceptable and what is not? Again, just because a person doesn't understand something doesn't mean that another one can't either. I don't understand everything there is not know about viruses yet their is enough information available to me to keep myself healthy. Would you call someone arrogant for knowing such information that you will not reach out for?

But if it make someone feel good about themselves to say "I know what God wants", and so long as that person doesn't try to force what they 'know' on to others, seems OK to me.

This goes both ways. If it makes a person feel good about themselves to say, "No one knows what God wants", though they might feel good, could be deadly. Much like not taking heed of information that could save their live. Which makes no sense to me. But the desires of the heart are a deep ocean as to why people keep themselves in the box they have made for themselves.

Even though I know what Bible says about what God wants for a prayer, what will and what will not be listened to. I certainly do not know how that is possible to force that on someone.

Are you a father?

Again, comparing a perfect, all knowing all powerful being to a flawed being, while all we can compare it to, is ultimately illogical IMO.

Yet is that enought to ignore the rest of my question? " You do understand that you shouldn't give a child everything they ask for right?" Do you try to be a bad father just because you're not perfect? I'm really struggling with why you keep coming back to the perfection thing. This thread is not about perfection. It's one subject. Promises in prayer. Can we just focus on that?

Do you think a person like that [unrighteous] should have their prayers heard?

That makes so little sense really. How could God hear ANY prayers is he doesn't listen to the unrighteous? At some point, isn't everyone unrighteous?

Not according to the Bible. Abraham was righteous. (James 2:21-23)
There are several people called righteous in the Bible. Don't mistake righteousness with perfection. Even Jesus didn't call himself perfect. (Mark 10:18)

Do read and study the Bible daily?

Not currently, no. But I did. For a long, long time.

Then I'm puzzled at your questions, expectations and comments on prayer. They are more inline with a person that was burned by the failure of religious doctrine rather than a study of the entire Bible. I have been discussing the Bible for many years with people with ideas that would make your head spin. Many have partial Bible knowledge. Their religious doctrine sticks to a few scriptures or just one part of the Bible. Those that know the Bible well, use it often to back up their assertions. I don't think I've seen you cite a single scripture. Or do you think that the Bible should be tossed out the window?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #58]

Anyone that studies and reads the Bible daily can do it. It's not like I come up with the answers on my own.

I would suspect everything you come up with is from you and or others that have had a part in your life, not from any ultimate being.{/quote]

You are free to suspect all you wish. Yet if you haven't spent years studying the Bible how do you know what you should or shouldn't suspect because you are minus a ton of Bible knowledge? How do you know how much of 'what I came up with' came from the Bible and how much didn't? If one thinks, "I am lacking knowledge then everyone must be missing the same knowledge" is a fallacious argument because how do you know unless you examine the other fellas data?

Having said that, anyone can take something and make something of it.

That is not the issue as what I have made of studying the Bible. The issue is have YOU studied the Bible to make something of it?

Rather or not it's true or accurate is something else altogether. I suppose, in 'knowing what God wants', I think it's arrogant, at the very least, for anyone to make that claim.

Well, it could be said those that do not know despite a whole Book on the subject to teach them is naive. Not just naive, but voluntarily so. I have the same information available to me as you do. Just because others decided to reach out for it and others fear that information, why are the ones that reach for it arrogant?

Unless, of course, they have a perfect understanding of all things. Which no one does.

The thread is not about "all things" is it? It is about prayer. Do you think that a perfect God can't teach an imperfect person what prayers are acceptable and what is not? Again, just because a person doesn't understand something doesn't mean that another one can't either. I don't understand everything there is not know about viruses yet their is enough information available to me to keep myself healthy. Would you call someone arrogant for knowing such information that you will not reach out for?

But if it make someone feel good about themselves to say "I know what God wants", and so long as that person doesn't try to force what they 'know' on to others, seems OK to me.

This goes both ways. If it makes a person feel good about themselves to say, "No one knows what God wants", though they might feel good, it could be deadly. Much like not taking heed of information that could save their live. Which makes no sense to me. But the desires of the heart are a deep ocean as to why people keep themselves in the box they have made for themselves.

Even though I know what Bible says about what God wants for a prayer, what will and what will not be listened to. I certainly do not know how that is possible to force that on someone.

Are you a father?

Again, comparing a perfect, all knowing all powerful being to a flawed being, while all we can compare it to, is ultimately illogical IMO.

Yet is that enought to ignore the rest of my question? " You do understand that you shouldn't give a child everything they ask for right?" Do you try to be a bad father just because you're not perfect? I'm really struggling with why you keep coming back to the perfection thing. This thread is not about perfection. It's one subject. Promises in prayer. Can we just focus on that?

Do you think a person like that [unrighteous] should have their prayers heard?

That makes so little sense really. How could God hear ANY prayers is he doesn't listen to the unrighteous? At some point, isn't everyone unrighteous?

Not according to the Bible. Abraham was righteous. (James 2:21-23)
There are several people called righteous in the Bible. Don't mistake righteousness with perfection. Even Jesus didn't call himself perfect. (Mark 10:18)

Do read and study the Bible daily?

Not currently, no. But I did. For a long, long time.

Then I'm puzzled at your questions, expectations and comments on prayer. They are more inline with a person that was burned by the failure of religious doctrine rather than a study of the entire Bible. I have been discussing the Bible for many years with people with ideas that would make your head spin. Many have partial Bible knowledge. Their religious doctrine sticks to a few scriptures or just one part of the Bible. Those that know the Bible well, use it often to back up their assertions. I don't think I've seen you cite a single scripture. Or do you think that the Bible should be tossed out the window?