A Promise Unkept

[Miles]

Matthew 18:19 came up in a discussion the other day. It was being argued that while at one time god may have cared about mankind, he has since lost all interest in us, As evidence is his complete disregard of the promise he made (in his persona as Jesus) to grant prayers. It was pointed out that as much as peace on earth was prayed for, god has never granted it. That no matter how much two parents prayed for the recovery of their dying child, god let her die anyway. That no matter how much two children prayed for the return of their runaway pet Rover, god never saw fit to bring him back

Because a scriptural passage may read differently depending on which Bible one reads, I've listed six slightly different versions here so as to make it clear what Jesus is saying.

Matthew 18:19
(ERV)
To say it another way, if two of you on earth agree on anything you pray for, my Father in heaven will do what you ask.

(NABRE)
Again, [amen,] I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father.

(NRSV)
Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

(KJV)
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

(NMB)
Again I say to you, if two of you agree in earth about any manner of thing, whatsoever they desire, it shall be given them by my Father who is in heaven.

(RSVCE)
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.



So, what do you think happened here?

A) Jesus was wrong and misspoke about what his alter ego would do.

B) Jesus didn't misspeak, but somewhere down the line god the father changed his mind.

.

[JehovahsWitness]

WHY HAS IT TAKEN SO MANY MILLENIA TO SETTLE THE ISSUE OF UNIVERSAL SOVEREIGNTY?


Because much time would be needed for humanity to exhaust all alternatives and see for themselves that God's rule is best.

To illustrate: You teenage child claims he doesnt need to live at home and expresses his desire to move out. Even though he is over 18 and free to do so, you know he does not have the life skills to live successfully on his own. The only way for him to recognise this however is to let him try. After a week he has squandered his savings and is sleeping on a friend's couch. Would it be beneficial to force him home at that point? Would he not claim he just needed more time to get on his feet?

It would take humans many thousands of years to reach the point in their progress where they would be forced to recognise they simply cannot self rule successfuly. It would be millenia before it could be said humans have tried every conceivable form of government, every economic, social and religious system. It would be thousands of years before the industrial relolution, the space age, the technological revolution, the information age ... and yet stil, world hunger, still mismanagement of the planet, still war, still hatred, still ignorance, slavery, suffering ... In short, it has taken many thousands of years for us to see that we don't need more time, we need more God.



JW



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SATAN , HUMAN SUFFERING and .... THE ISSUE OF UNIVERSAL SOVEREIGNTY

[AquinasForGod]

If we spent more time reading what the early church believed, then verses like this are easily understood. What did the early church fathers understand?

Here Aquinas quotes different early church fathers. https://isidore.co/aquinas/english/CAMatthew.htm#18

Saint Jerome says this is said to the Apostles.

The apostles gathered in his name, meaning their will was to be the will of Jesus, so they would ask for things in the will of God and not outside it.

Surely, Jesus was not saying if the Apostles prayed to become the best thieves ever that he would grant them that power.

And the church fathers that related verse 19 to believers, they point out the same thing, that the prayer must be within the will of God. It must not be for vengeance, for evil, or for mercy toward unrelenting sinners.

The early church understood that God will not go against his own will, so if your prayer is outside his will, then it will not be answered, which is why Jesus when he was a sign to us, showing how we ought to pray, he said, "God, not my will be done but your will."

[Miles]

WHY HAS IT TAKEN SO MANY MILLENIA TO SETTLE THE ISSUE OF UNIVERSAL SOVEREIGNTY?


Because much time would be needed for humanity to exhaust all alternatives and see for themselves that God's rule is best.

To illustrate: You teenage child claims he doesnt need to live at home and expresses his desire to move out. Even though he is over 18 and free to do so, you know he does not have the life skills to live successfully on his own. The only way for him to recognise this however is to let him try. After a week he has squandered his savings and is sleeping on a friend's couch. Would it be beneficial to force him home at that point? Would he not claim he just needed more time to get on his feet?

It would take humans many thousands of years to reach the point in their progress where they would be forced to recognise they simply cannot self rule successfuly. It would be millenia before it could be said humans have tried every conceivable form of government, every economic, social and religious system. It would be thousands of years before the industrial relolution, the space age, the technological revolution, the information age ... and yet stil, world hunger, still mismanagement of the planet, still war, still hatred, still ignorance, slavery, suffering ... In short, it has taken many thousands of years for us to see that we don't need more time, we need more God.

Yeah, a God who not only makes mistakes.

* Just to note: We don't repent, regret, or are sorry for the things we do right. We repent, regret, or are sorry for things we do wrong: Mistakes. Here are eight mistakes God made

Mistake 1 Genesis 6:6
The Lord was sorry he had made human beings on the earth. His heart was filled with pain.

Mistake 2 Exodus 32:14
and Jehovah repenteth of the evil which He hath spoken of doing to His people.

Mistake 3 1 Samuel 15:35
And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul; and the Lord repented that He had made Saul king over Israel.

Mistake4 Jeremiah 15:6
Thou hast forsaken Me,” saith the Lord, “thou art gone backward; therefore will I stretch out My hand against thee and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting.

Mistake 5 Jeremiah 42:10
“ ‘If you resolve to remain in this land, I will build you up and not tear you down; I will plant you and not uproot you. For I deeply regret the disaster that I have inflicted upon you.

Mistake 6 Amos 7:1-3
The Lord God showed me this: He was forming a swarm of locusts at the time the spring crop first began to sprout—after the cutting of the king’s hay.
2And it came to pass, when they had made an end of eating the grass of the land, then I said, “O Lord God, forgive, I beseech Thee! By whom shall Jacob arise? For he is small.” 3The Lord repented concerning this. “It shall not be,” saith the Lord.

Mistake 7 Amos 7:6
So the Lord felt sorry about this. “This will not happen either,” said the Lord God.

Mistake 8 Jonah 3:10
When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God repented of the evil which he had said he would do to them; and he did not do it.

But is disgustingly inhumane


He takes no pity on innocent children

Hosea 2:1-5
1 “Then you will say to your brothers, ‘You are my people,’ and you will say to your sisters, ‘He has shown mercy to you.’”
2 “Argue with your mother.Argue with her because she is no longer my wife, and I am no longer her husband! Tell her to stop being like a prostitute. Tell her to take away her lovers[c] from between her breasts. 3 If she refuses to stop her adultery, I will strip her naked and leave her like the day she was born. I will take away her people, and she will be like an empty, dry desert. I will kill her with thirst. 4 I will have no pity on her children because they are the children of prostitution. 5 Their mother has acted like a prostitute. She should be ashamed of what she did.

And, in fact, has no trouble having them ripped apart.

2 Kings 2:23-24
23 Elisha went from that city to Bethel. He was walking up the hill to the city, and some boys were coming down out of the city. They began making fun of him. They said, “Go away, you bald-headed man! Go away, you bald-headed man!” 24 Elisha looked back and saw them. He asked the Lord to cause bad things to happen to them. Then two bears came out of the forest and attacked the boys. There were 42 boys ripped apart by the bears.

even having them, innocent women, and little babies killed.

1 Samuel 15:2-3
2 The Lord All-Powerful says: ‘When the Israelites came out of Egypt, the Amalekites tried to stop them from going to Canaan. I saw what the Amalekites did. 3 Now go fight against the Amalekites. You must completely destroy the Amalekites and everything that belongs to them. Don’t let anything live; you must kill all the men and women and all of their children and little babies.

And he really hates men who have sex with one another.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

But God does condone slavery.

Leviticus 25:44-46
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.

As does his son Jesus

Matthew 10:24
A disciple is not above his teacher, or a slave above his master.

Luke 12:42
And the Lord said, ‘Who then is the faithful and prudent manager whom his master will put in charge of his slaves, to give them their allowance of food at the proper time?

Think we should treat people this way? How about censuring slavery altogether, unlike Jesus who accepts the ownership of people as easily as he accepts owning a mule, and without even a nod to its repugnance.


Yeah, we need more God like we need a blister on our butts.


.

[JehovahsWitness]

... a God who not only makes mistakes

There are no scriptures that use the word mistake in connection with the creator.



How can a perfect God "regret"?
viewtopic.php?p=1014669#p1014669

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FREE WILL, OMNISCIENCE and ...SELECTIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE

[JehovahsWitness]

But is disgustingly inhumane

There is nothing inhumain about punishing the wicked, indeed it would arguably be inhumain not to.

- 2 Kings 2:23-24
Did God send bears to kill children?
viewtopic.php?p=830572#p830572

- 1 Samuel 15:2-3
Was God injuste to exterminate the Amelekites?
viewtopic.php?p=1032398#p1032398

- Leviticus 20:13
Should Christians repudiate the biblical laws calling for the execution of those guilty of performing homosexual acts?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 78#p994278

JW



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[JehovahsWitness]

But God does condone slavery

Yes he does but NOT the kind that is oppressive and abusive.



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Isn't slavery automatically abusive and thus morally objectionable?
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