The Atonement

[Revelations won]

To all true Christians there is nothing more important to our salvation than "The Atonement of Jesus Christ".

Having said that, is it not therefore extremely important to every individual to understand fully what and how the atonement works for our benefit?

What does the atonement do or does not do?

What is required on our part to receive the full benefits of the atonement?

What and when and by whom did the atonement begin?

Can anyone clearly show all scriptures pertaining to the atonement?

I look forward to hearing your "take" on this most important topic.

Kind regards,
RW

[Tcg]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #507]

It looks like 2 to me, and im baffled you say otherwise. Read it again Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Please if you see one Israel still, expplain the dynamic to me. Also I ask any others who maybe reading, how many Israels do you observe in Rom 9:6

Paul is explaining the difference between being as Israelite by birth versus an Israelite by faith. Non-Israelites can become Israelites through faith and Israelites who aren't of the faith aren't true Israelites.

The verses following 6 clarify this:

Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. [ESV]

It is clarified even further later in the chapter:

30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, [ESV]

Tcg

[Brightfame52]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #507]

It looks like 2 to me, and im baffled you say otherwise. Read it again Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Please if you see one Israel still, expplain the dynamic to me. Also I ask any others who maybe reading, how many Israels do you observe in Rom 9:6

God chose one nation and gave them special significance as God's chosen people:

The Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

God's chosen people were the seed of Abram, whose name was changed to Abraham:

Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; . . .

Abraham's son Isaac later had twin sons named Jacob and Esau. Jacob's name was changed to Israel:

And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

Israel had twelve sons which became twelve tribes known collectively as the children of Israel.

If there is more than one nation of the children of Israel, then it is not so "special."

Lol, all that doesnt explain to me why you dont see Two Israel's in Rom 9:6
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

[Brightfame52]

tcg

Paul is explaining the difference between being as Israelite by birth versus an Israelite by faith. Non-Israelites can become Israelites through faith and Israelites who aren't of the faith aren't true Israelites.

Okay, so then do you see two different Israels in Rom 9:6 ?

[Tcg]

tcg

Paul is explaining the difference between being as Israelite by birth versus an Israelite by faith. Non-Israelites can become Israelites through faith and Israelites who aren't of the faith aren't true Israelites.

Okay, so then do you see two different Israels in Rom 9:6 ?

Sure. A spiritual Israel and a physical or fleshly Israel. One based on birth, and another based on faith. Of course, there is an overlap. One could be an Israelite based on both ancestry and faith. In other words, it's not always either one or the other. In some cases, it is both. Like this:


Where the yellow represents an Israelite based on their ancestry, blue based on their faith and green where both apply.


Tcg

[Brightfame52]

tcg

Paul is explaining the difference between being as Israelite by birth versus an Israelite by faith. Non-Israelites can become Israelites through faith and Israelites who aren't of the faith aren't true Israelites.

Okay, so then do you see two different Israels in Rom 9:6 ?

Sure. A spiritual Israel and a physical or fleshly Israel. One based on birth, and another based on faith. Of course, there is an overlap. One could be an Israelite based on both ancestry and faith. In other words, it's not always either one or the other. In some cases, it is both. Like this:


Where the yellow represents an Israelite based on their ancestry, blue based on their faith and green where both apply.


Tcg

I gotcha. The Jews or Israel according to Faith, and thats Faith in Christ, is the remnant found in national Israel Isa 1:9


Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Thats small remnant is Israel but distinguished from national Israel inwhich its found during the OT days. So thats the merging you speak of. Also the remnant Israel is the Church, Zion, the people of God, the Sheep, and now under the NT dispensation, Gentiles are being added to the remnant Israel of Faith. The Gentiles added are also a remnant from the gentiles, Acts 15:14-17

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Residue is another word for remnant , it means kataloipos:

left remaining

Now both these remnant people, from among the jews, and from the gentiles, complete remnant Israel, and so in this manner all Israel shall be saved. Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

[myth-one.com]

I gotcha. The Jews or Israel according to Faith, and thats Faith in Christ, is the remnant found in national Israel Isa 1:9

I'm not an expert.

But I believe the Jews worship the same God as Christians and Muslims.

But I think Christians are the only ones who have faith in Christ as their Savior.

When your "remnant Jews" put their faith in Christ, are they still Jews, or do they become Christians at that time.

[Tcg]

tcg

Paul is explaining the difference between being as Israelite by birth versus an Israelite by faith. Non-Israelites can become Israelites through faith and Israelites who aren't of the faith aren't true Israelites.

Okay, so then do you see two different Israels in Rom 9:6 ?

Sure. A spiritual Israel and a physical or fleshly Israel. One based on birth, and another based on faith. Of course, there is an overlap. One could be an Israelite based on both ancestry and faith. In other words, it's not always either one or the other. In some cases, it is both. Like this:


Where the yellow represents an Israelite based on their ancestry, blue based on their faith and green where both apply.


Tcg

I gotcha. The Jews or Israel according to Faith, and thats Faith in Christ, is the remnant found in national Israel Isa 1:9


Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Thats small remnant is Israel but distinguished from national Israel inwhich its found during the OT days. So thats the merging you speak of. Also the remnant Israel is the Church, Zion, the people of God, the Sheep, and now under the NT dispensation, Gentiles are being added to the remnant Israel of Faith. The Gentiles added are also a remnant from the gentiles, Acts 15:14-17

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Residue is another word for remnant , it means kataloipos:

left remaining

Now both these remnant people, from among the jews, and from the gentiles, complete remnant Israel, and so in this manner all Israel shall be saved. Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Yes. Paul as well speaks of this remnant and the "grafting in of the Gentiles" in Romans 11.


Tcg

[Brightfame52]

tcg

Paul is explaining the difference between being as Israelite by birth versus an Israelite by faith. Non-Israelites can become Israelites through faith and Israelites who aren't of the faith aren't true Israelites.

Okay, so then do you see two different Israels in Rom 9:6 ?

Sure. A spiritual Israel and a physical or fleshly Israel. One based on birth, and another based on faith. Of course, there is an overlap. One could be an Israelite based on both ancestry and faith. In other words, it's not always either one or the other. In some cases, it is both. Like this:


Where the yellow represents an Israelite based on their ancestry, blue based on their faith and green where both apply.


Tcg

I gotcha. The Jews or Israel according to Faith, and thats Faith in Christ, is the remnant found in national Israel Isa 1:9


Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Thats small remnant is Israel but distinguished from national Israel inwhich its found during the OT days. So thats the merging you speak of. Also the remnant Israel is the Church, Zion, the people of God, the Sheep, and now under the NT dispensation, Gentiles are being added to the remnant Israel of Faith. The Gentiles added are also a remnant from the gentiles, Acts 15:14-17

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Residue is another word for remnant , it means kataloipos:

left remaining

Now both these remnant people, from among the jews, and from the gentiles, complete remnant Israel, and so in this manner all Israel shall be saved. Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Yes. Paul as well speaks of this remnant and the "grafting in of the Gentiles" in Romans 11.


Tcg

Yes. See National Israel is now just another gentile nation, so jews are being grafted in like any other ethnicity is grafted into Faith remnant Israel, so in this manner all Israel shall be saved.

[Tcg]

Yes. See National Israel is now just another gentile nation, so jews are being grafted in like any other ethnicity is grafted into Faith remnant Israel, so in this manner all Israel shall be saved.

Who would you classify "Fatih remnant Israel" as being? Would this be a synonym for Christians?


Tcg

[Brightfame52]

Yes. See National Israel is now just another gentile nation, so jews are being grafted in like any other ethnicity is grafted into Faith remnant Israel, so in this manner all Israel shall be saved.

Who would you classify "Fatih remnant Israel" as being? Would this be a synonym for Christians?


Tcg

Yes and well as the Church, the Body of Christ.