All believers know very well that false religions exist, that is, they either have beliefs that are erroneous, or that their members and leaders allow / practice things that God condemns, or they stop doing things that God's Word says would be identifying of the true followers of Jesus Christ. Because of that, millions of people have decided that there is not a single religious community that is the true people of God united with whom they should also try to join.
We know that this is so because shortly after the death of the apostles, religious apostasy plunged Christians into very deep darkness, and it was almost impossible to distinguish what was true in religious matters or what should not be done if one was a Christian. , etc. Since then it was as if the few Christians that emerged were born in an exiled country, as when the Jews were exiled in Babylon, a country of many gods and where they had to be very strong to resist the pressure and control of the environment of that system where they had been taken into captivity.
Many years passed until modern times, when a little here and a little there, the Bible became better known, also history, etc. and those who had religious control of the world could not prevent people realizing the religious lies that sincere believers had been subjected to for thousands of years. For example, no longer all believed that they should kneel in front of images, or consider Mary as if she were "mother of God", and so on. This process was necessary for the truths to be clarified, and as Jesus said, the wheat would not be destroyed along with the weeds.
Let's talk a bit about that process in this topic. In that time of captivity in the form of exile, the believers were subjected to many erroneous teachings and religious practices that are still believed in the world, but how can they be discovered?
The great religious scam
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Re: The great religious scam
Post #21Jehovah's Witnesses hold the "The Great Apostacy" did not start in ernest until after the death of the last Apostle and after the writing of scripture that would become the Christian canon.historia wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:27 pm
And so, if the early Christian community quickly fell into apostasy, to the point of becoming "unrecognizable," as several here are claiming, why are you all quoting from the books (and only those books) that were chosen by that supposedly apostate Church? Why do you submit to their New Testament canon?
JW
When did "The Great Apostacy" take place?
viewtopic.php?p=1044471#p1044471
Historically, how did so many Christian denominations come about?
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Re: The great religious scam
Post #22Okay, but a number of other Christian texts were also likely written in the first century -- e.g., the Shepherd of Hermas, the Didache, the Epistle of Barnabas, perhaps even the Gospel of Thomas, among many others -- which you presumably don't consider to be scripture. So, the mere fact that a text was written before the death of the last apostle doesn't, in itself, make it scripture.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:05 pmJehovah's Witnesses hold the "The Great Apostacy" did not start in ernest until after the death of the last Apostle and after the writing of scripture that would become the Christian canon.historia wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:27 pm
And so, if the early Christian community quickly fell into apostasy, to the point of becoming "unrecognizable," as several here are claiming, why are you all quoting from the books (and only those books) that were chosen by that supposedly apostate Church? Why do you submit to their New Testament canon?
It just seems a little odd that the books that you all now consider to be scripture were ultimately chosen by churches that you consider to be "apostate." If they were so wrong about so many other things, why trust them on this matter?
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Re: The great religious scam
Post #23Eloi wrote:
Could you please elaborate on the nature of this apostasy? What form did it take? Who do you see as its progenitors?We know that this is so because shortly after the death of the apostles, religious apostasy plunged Christians into very deep darkness,
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Re: The great religious scam
Post #24We hold that the Apostacty was not instantaneous. The process took time as the Christian congregation was gradually infiltrated. The struggle of second generation church fathers to ensure fact stayed seperate from fiction is documented in the early catalogues which never gave authenticity to the apocrypha. So it wasn't a canon established by an apostate church, it was a canon established by a true church, which was under apostate attack.historia wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:55 pm
Okay, but a number of other Christian texts were also likely written in the first century -- e.g., the Shepherd of Hermas, the Didache, the Epistle of Barnabas, perhaps even the Gospel of Thomas, among many others -- which you presumably don't consider to be scripture. So, the mere fact that a text was written before the death of the last apostle doesn't, in itself, make it scripture.
It just seems a little odd that the books that you all now consider to be scripture were ultimately chosen by churches that you consider to be "apostate." If they were so wrong about so many other things, why trust them on this matter?
2 PETER 2 :1
However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you.+ These will quietly bring in destructive sects, and they will even disown the owner who bought them,+ bringing speedy destruction upon themselves.
The attack of the apostate infiltration could not really take hold while there were living witnesses of the Apostles. It was these Apostles that authenticated Christian tradition (including what was to be accepted as scripture) and those the Apostle taught, that held it in place. Indeed, there was no real need for written catalogues while these "second generation" men and women were still alive to witness true Christian traditions learnt at the feet of the Apostles (Acts 2:42).
The church proved its overall integrity by standing firm under external persecution in the 2nd century and the conflicts only really took hold as it entered the third century. We do not claim to be able to pinpoint a specific year when the Apostacy gained the upper hand, but the evidence is clear from hindsight, that it did.
If you would like to listen to a JW video lecture on this see the link below (start 21"00)
https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#e ... 01_7_VIDEO
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To read more please go to other posts related to...
BIBLE CANON , BIBLICAL COMPILATION and ...THE APOCRYPHA
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: The great religious scam
Post #25Interesting. So, would you say that after the Council of Nicaea we are now dealing with an "Apostate" Church, or was there still a "true" Church at that point?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:49 am
The church proved its overall integrity by standing firm under external persecution in the 2nd century and the conflicts only really took hold as it entered the third century. We do not claim to be able to pinpoint a specific year when the Apostacy gained the upper hand, but the evidence is clear from hindsight, that it did.
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Re: The great religious scam
Post #26I would definitely mark that as a key moment in the degredation... I think you will find the talk I posted interested just perhaps 5" mins that deal with how the church was "taken down"...(22"45 to say 27"00)historia wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:53 amInteresting. So, would you say that after the Council of Nicaea we are now dealing with an "Apostate" Church, or was there still a "true" Church at that point?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:49 am
The church proved its overall integrity by standing firm under external persecution in the 2nd century and the conflicts only really took hold as it entered the third century. We do not claim to be able to pinpoint a specific year when the Apostacy gained the upper hand, but the evidence is clear from hindsight, that it did.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: The great religious scam
Post #27So, if the consensus of the Church leadership in 325 was that the Son is uncreated and of one being with the Father -- which you disagree with -- then would you agree that it is reasonable to not accept (or at least be severely skeptical of) the consensus of the Church leadership after that?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:59 amI would definitely mark that as a key moment in the degredationhistoria wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:53 amInteresting. So, would you say that after the Council of Nicaea we are now dealing with an "Apostate" Church, or was there still a "true" Church at that point?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:49 am
The church proved its overall integrity by standing firm under external persecution in the 2nd century and the conflicts only really took hold as it entered the third century. We do not claim to be able to pinpoint a specific year when the Apostacy gained the upper hand, but the evidence is clear from hindsight, that it did.
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Re: The great religious scam
Post #28Absolutely BUT the yardstick is not the date or even of our personal view but whether something agrees with the written word. Its logical God knew that he would have to record, have compiled and preserve the teachings of Christ, the Apostles and the first century disciples in order that individuals of later eras know what is (religious) truth and what is not.historia wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:44 pm
So, if the consensus of the Church leadership in 325 was that the Son is uncreated and of one being with the Father -- which you disagree with -- then would you agree that it is reasonable to not accept (or at least be severely skeptical of) the consensus of the Church leadership after that?
The evidence indicates that the Christian scriptures where written and fixed as canon well before the church fell under the control of unscrupulous men. We can thus measure the degree with which the church fell by the distance it took from the original teachings of Christ.
JW
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: The great religious scam
Post #29But that's precisely the problem I have with your argument -- it doesn't fully match the historical timeline.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:36 pm
The evidence indicates that the Christian scriptures where written and fixed as canon well before the church fell under the control of unscrupulous men.
You quoted from 2 Peter above, so let's take that letter as an example.
Eusebius gives us good insights into the state of the New Testament canon in the early 4th Century. He notes in Ecclesiastical History 3.3 that 2 Peter "does not belong to the canon," but many find it profitable to use anyway.
He says the exact same thing about the Shepherd of Hermas, noting that it "cannot be placed among the acknowledged books, while by others it is considered quite indispensable."
Indeed, Eusebius notes, rightly, that Hermas was much more widely quoted by earlier Church Fathers than 2 Peter (probably because 2 Peter was written quite late, in the 2nd Century, as most scholars hold today). The Shepherd of Hermas even appears in Codex Sinaiticus, the famous mid-4th Century manuscript.
2 Peter would not become a fixed part of the canon (and Hermas finally excluded) until the late 4th and early 5th Century, long after the Council of Nicaea, and thus decidedly not "well before the church fell under the control of unscrupulous men," as you would have it.
James, Jude, 2nd & 3rd John, Hebrews, and (especially) Revelation were also still disputed well into the 4th Century.
So, again, I'm having a hard time understanding why it is you and others here are quoting from 2 Peter, when it was "apostate" churches who ultimately decided that book should be included in the New Testament.
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Re: The great religious scam
Post #30historia wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:25 pmBut that's precisely the problem I have with your argument -- it doesn't fully match the historical timeline.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:36 pm
The evidence indicates that the Christian scriptures where written and fixed as canon well before the church fell under the control of unscrupulous men.
More importantly, no one individual or church council established the canonicity of the bible books, it was done by the first century christian community as authorised collections were made under the approval of the Apostles and early "church fathers". The presently available catalogues merely allow us to go some way to document this process.Even if the church had more or less fallen by the 4th century, it only goes to prove even a broken clock it right twice a day; in other words it does not mean every decision it subsequently made had to be wrong
In short, the timeline of the apostacy is not disrupted by the so-called disputed books such as 2 Peter. We do not have to hold the entire body of scripture in doubt it until we have unanamous documented testimony for all of the books is established nor de we have to conclude all the decisions of later councils were necessarily wrong.
NOTE Even If we factor in THE APOSTACY gradually increasing from the end of the first century to the fourth and beyond, we can appreciate the limited significance of the later church councils as regards to the compilation and authentication of already established biblical canon. Such decisions as to the apocrypha/disputed books thus does not throw any supposed timeline of the Apostacy out of sequence. A correct decision and the existence of the Apostacy, are not mutually exclusive. (regarding accepting such conclusions SEE BELOW "Why Peter not Hemas?"
COLLECTIONS: Regarding the so-called disputed books, it's understandable if certain letters took longer to circulate or even didn't reach certain parts of the Christian community making available evidence scarce, late or even non-existence in certain areas. This would not be particularly significant as to the progression of the Great Apostacy.
SO WHY PETER NOT HERMAS?
2 Peter meets these demands; the Shepherd of Hermas* for example does not.Suffice it that the book(s) (a) were evidently written in the first century [and therefore potentially had apostolic authority] (b) we have external evidence of canonicity [generally circulation being at least a factor to consider ] (c) sufficient internal evidence of authenticity and (d) it harmonises entirely with the (established) canonical writings.
[*]SHEPHERD OF HERMAS
- classified by Eusebius as spurious (Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius , p. 110)
- The Muratorian fragment classified as noncanonical (The New Testament Documents, G. Milligan, 1913, pages 214, 290, 291)
CONCLUSION Although the existing catalogues indicate there was a measure of doubt as to the authenticity of certain currently accepted books in the Christian bible, a wholistic approach leads many (including Jehovahs Witnesses) to accept the canon is it presently stands regardless of the growing apostacy that became increasingly evident during the fourth century and beyond.
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Did the Apostle Peter write the epistles that bear his name ?
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8