The Bible states:
"A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death."
Is this law still binding for anyone today? If so, are such laws ever being carried out?
Or, is it no longer binding for anyone? And if not, why is it no longer binding? And furthermore, if it is no longer binding for anyone, who's to say God's law will not change again someday?
Do God's Morals Change?
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Do God's Morals Change?
Post #1In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Do God's Morals Change?
Post #21I think it depends much of what is really meant with slavery. But, I really am interested, what are the reasons to think it is bad.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:11 pm Holistic morals today says slavery is bad. Owning other people as property is bad. Now you may want to argue that it's not a bad thing. Good luck with that. But the fact is that it is today regarded as bad.
It seems that there is a difference between what modern people and ancient people think slavery is. And I can see why it is good that modern people don't have the right anymore, unrighteous people would not be good for owning anyone. Modern people are generally too evil to even handle tax payers money, which I think should be ended and people should use only their own money.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:11 pmThus the Bible is going to come under question and another fact is that Bile apologetics don't argue that slavery (owning people as property) is ok; they argue that what is in the Bible is not really slavery...
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Re: Do God's Morals Change?
Post #22[Replying to 1213 in post #22]
Yeah, people today so so much more evil.
Excuse. Can you prove this is actual and real, or is it simply another opinion stated as potential fact?It seems that there is a difference between what modern people and ancient people think slavery is.
Today is CED: christian excuse day. People that like to excuse god for atrocities just love to make unsubstantiated claims that 'people today are more evil than back then'. That's ridiculous, generally speaking. People sacrificed humans and animals to gods (even the christian god), burned people at the stake, stoned people and on and on. God went so far so to, according to the bible, not only destroy a city, but 99.99999% of life on the planet! And yet, here we are, today, with him not destroying a city or flooding the planet.And I can see why it is good that modern people don't have the right anymore, unrighteous people would not be good for owning anyone. Modern people are generally too evil to even handle tax payers money, which I think should be ended and people should use only their own money.
Yeah, people today so so much more evil.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Do God's Morals Change?
Post #23Fornication - "sexual intercourse between people not married to each other"
Interesting. No one should have any good reason? And therefore, the applied penalty is irrelevant?
Care to redact your prior response? (i.e.):
"Those priests that Bible is talking about do not exist anymore. So, even if the law is valid, there is no situation where that law would be required."
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Do God's Morals Change?
Post #24It is the owning of another person for life, and they do not have freedom. I suggest you don't argue about the idea of 'Free' as 'Freedman' has been a term for anyone not a slave in cultures from Ancient Greece and China up to 19th c America and 18th c Muslim states.1213 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:07 pmI think it depends much of what is really meant with slavery. But, I really am interested, what are the reasons to think it is bad.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:11 pm Holistic morals today says slavery is bad. Owning other people as property is bad. Now you may want to argue that it's not a bad thing. Good luck with that. But the fact is that it is today regarded as bad.
It seems that there is a difference between what modern people and ancient people think slavery is. And I can see why it is good that modern people don't have the right anymore, unrighteous people would not be good for owning anyone. Modern people are generally too evil to even handle tax payers money, which I think should be ended and people should use only their own money.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:11 pmThus the Bible is going to come under question and another fact is that Bile apologetics don't argue that slavery (owning people as property) is ok; they argue that what is in the Bible is not really slavery...
What's bad about it even if you treat your slaves well is that they do not have the rights and freedoms that other people have. Historically, every enslaved group desires their freedom, by buying it or just running away. Trying to argue 'It wasn't so bad' or 'Biblical slavery wasn't Really Slavery like we mean it today' won't wash. Even if it was, people didn't want to be slaves and it was (for foreigners) slavery as we mean it today.
I won't even address the suggestion that modern people are somehow worse than people in past times. You ought to read some history.
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Re: Do God's Morals Change?
Post #25Fornication still applies but the penalty for it (or at least the immediate one in this lifetime) no longer applies.
I would imagine we'd all be dead or in debt. Even the NT writers acknowledged that the OT law system was imperfect because knowing right from wrong doesn't mean that you will be able to do it. By nature, we are flawed.
Hebrews 8:7-8
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people
Romans 7:18-19
18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.
Here's some good perspective:
[emphasis added]The law was perfect in its nature, but imperfect in its results. It was a perfect expression of God’s righteousness, but an imperfect means of making man righteous. Of course, that is not the fault of the law itself or the purpose for which God gave it. For the law was never given to redeem sinners (Titus 3:5–6; Rom. 4:5), but to reveal sin.
Source: https://defendinginerrancy.com/bible-so ... s_7.19.php
God may change his laws as he sees fit. I don't see anything wrong with that just as long as he informs us of the change. What i find as a big problem are those claiming that such and such no longer applies and they lack any verifiable evidence to support their claims. Such claims probably stem from people wanting to change the laws to accommodate their lifestyle or culture. Perhaps that is right or wrong in some cases but again, what is a good way of verifying that?!
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Re: Do God's Morals Change?
Post #26MORALS are basically what viewed as right and wrong. God never changes his morals, but he does change how he punishes (or forgives) what is wrong and rewards what is right according to circumstances.MORALS
standards of behaviour; principles of right and wrong.
In a similar way God's morals are consistent but he does change his laws and reaction to actions depending on who he is dealing with and their circumstances. When meeting out punishment, extending mercy or implementing actions in relation to his morals, God is infinitely flexible.To illustrate: A parent may believe that stealing is wrong. If a burgler breaks into his house and steals his money he may call the police and press charges but if his three year old daughter steals a toy soldier from her big brothers playroom, she will probably get away with a stern talking to and instructions to give it back. Does the lack of prison time mean the father has different morals ? No. He consistently views stealing as wrong, but the circumstances demanded he react differently to the wrong.
JW
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 44#p895644
Do God's morals change?
viewtopic.php?p=1048199#p1048199
To learn more please go to other posts related to ....
GOD, THE DIVINE NAME and ...THE DIVINE PERSONALITY
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Do God's Morals Change?
Post #27I already acknowledged this in post #18. My question is as follows (for which the other interlocutor avoided to try and answer):JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:55 pmMORALS are basically what viewed as right and wrong. God never changes his morals, but he does change how he punishes (or forgives) what is wrong and rewards what is right according to circumstances.MORALS
standards of behaviour; principles of right and wrong.
In a similar way God's morals are consistent but he does change his laws and reaction to actions depending on who he is dealing with and their circumstances. When meeting out punishment, extending mercy or implementing actions in relation to his morals, God is infinitely flexible.To illustrate: A parent may believe that stealing is wrong. If a burgler breaks into his house and steals his money he may call the police and press charges but if his three year old daughter steals a toy soldier from her big brothers playroom, she will probably get away with a stern talking to and instructions to give it back. Does the lack of prison time mean the father has different morals ? No. He consistently views stealing as wrong, but the circumstances demanded he react differently to the wrong.
JW
RELATED POSTS
Does God violate his own moral standards?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 20#p840620
Does God "changing his mind" mean that he ' He failed to get it right the first time'?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 44#p895644
Do God's morals change?
viewtopic.php?p=1048199#p1048199
To learn more please go to other posts related to ....
GOD, THE DIVINE NAME and ...THE DIVINE PERSONALITY
If you think it was morally permissible to burn the daughter to death, during this era/situation, for identified "fornication", can you demonstrate why?
You seem to be quick to point out 'justification(s)' for why a thief and a toddler might receive differing punishment. Maybe you can clear up how 'justifiable' punishment was warranted, during that time/place, for female fornicators?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Do God's Morals Change?
Post #28Has He ever actually informed us of any laws? Anyways, I digressAgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:48 pm God may change his laws as he sees fit. I don't see anything wrong with that just as long as he informs us of the change.
Well, again, it kind of goes to the question laid out above How do we not only know God issued any of these laws at all? But further still, how would we know if He ever actually decided to modify any?AgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:48 pm What i find as a big problem are those claiming that such and such no longer applies and they lack any verifiable evidence to support their claims. Such claims probably stem from people wanting to change the laws to accommodate their lifestyle or culture. Perhaps that is right or wrong in some cases but again, what is a good way of verifying that?!
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Do God's Morals Change?
Post #29During this era/situation? ... in our modern 21st century age? No I do not morally permissible to burn fornicators to death.
I cannot "demonstrate" why, I can tell you why I believe such punishment would be wrong now .. ..Namely because the time (and circumstances ) for such punishment has passed. I believe we are no longer under Mosaic law.
I do not understand the request... if you are asking why I can consider such a punishment fitting, the answer is because fornication is wrong and causes suffering. It is entirely avoidable, so if someone chooses to defy Gods law it is in my opinion entirely fitting they face the consequences of their actions.
JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Do God's Morals Change?
Post #30The problem of verification goes even deeper. I can't even say that we can objectively know what punishment fornication requires. There are a lot of prerequisites that have to be established before getting there, like when it comes to moral ontology (what foundation is there for objective morals?) and moral epistemology (our ability to know about them), etc.POI wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 5:40 pmHas He ever actually informed us of any laws? Anyways, I digressAgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:48 pm God may change his laws as he sees fit. I don't see anything wrong with that just as long as he informs us of the change.
Well, again, it kind of goes to the question laid out above How do we not only know God issued any of these laws at all? But further still, how would we know if He ever actually decided to modify any?AgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:48 pm What i find as a big problem are those claiming that such and such no longer applies and they lack any verifiable evidence to support their claims. Such claims probably stem from people wanting to change the laws to accommodate their lifestyle or culture. Perhaps that is right or wrong in some cases but again, what is a good way of verifying that?!
All I can say is based on my cultural upbringing, killing over fornication would be excessive.
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