Artificial life: can it be created?

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Artificial life: can it be created?

Post #1

Post by Diagoras »

Here's the link to an article which inspired my creation of this debate topic:

https://newatlas.com/science/artificial ... nteresting

"Artificial cells created that imitate basic functions of living cells"

There are disagreements within the scientific community on precisely what constitutes a 'living' thing, and clearly these artificial cells are not alive. However, the experiment shows success in replicating some important attributes of life.

A general theistic position might declare "All life comes from God", but if some 'cellular gene engineer' of the future succeeded in creating a basic cell that ate, grew, replicated and all the other generally agreed things that life does - could it be recognised as life? And wouldn't that falsify that bolded theistic claim?

The Affirmative:

The creation of life is possible by means other than a god.

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Re: Artificial life: can it be created?

Post #61

Post by brunumb »

Inquirer wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:15 am So how can you reach that conclusion? what characteristic must it have in order to be "convincing" evidence for God?.
There is no one characteristic. It just has to be convincing. Everyone has a different threshold of 'gullibility'. Some people are convinced by the fact that they read about God in an old book. Others need a miracle like a god telling them where their car keys can be found after they prayed for help. In reality, the vast majority of theists did not actually reach their position through the evaluation of any evidence anyway. They were inculcated with their belief from a very young age. The whole evidence schtick comes later when some of them want to somehow rationalise that belief. I don't know what would convince me that a god exists. All I can say is that nothing so far has managed to achieve it. Perhaps a personal miracle in which the laws of the universe are broken, or something that I personally consider to be an impossible event occurs that I actually witness. Hearsay, second-hand stories and anecdotes simply don't cut it. But then, I don't really know where my threshold of 'gullibility' lies.
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Re: Artificial life: can it be created?

Post #62

Post by brunumb »

Inquirer wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:34 am
DrNoGods wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:39 pm [Replying to Inquirer in post #37]
... currently I'm asking atheists to justify the claim "I've never been shown evidence for God" this is what they say so why can't they justify it? If they can't justify why do they keep saying it? faith? belief? prejudice?
How about the simple and unambiguous answer that the evidence they've been shown is not convincing. That's all the justification that is needed.
But that's not logical, unless you can explain the test you apply to decide if something is "convincing" its all well and good to say "Bah, that's not convincing" but unless you have a rational process for doing that evaluation it can be no more that whim, belief surely?
I don't need to apply any test. If I am not convinced then the alleged evidence was clearly not convincing to me. That much is self-evident.
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Re: Artificial life: can it be created?

Post #63

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to William in post #61]
Lets say mother did rise from the dead.
After the celebrations and your conversion to theism...what then?
I suppose the next step would be to try and figure out which of the many proposed gods were responsible, what its rules were for considering the same fate for myself and others, and how to communicate with it. But these things are so far into the hypothetical question realm that it is hardly worth pondering because no genuinely dead human has reappeared as a living human outside of stories on old holy books. If I believed those kinds of stories were factual, I'd have a ready answer to your question.
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Re: Artificial life: can it be created?

Post #64

Post by Tcg »

[Replying to Diagoras in post #1]

We seem to have drifted off topic slightly, so I want to get back to your O.P. which I find very thought provoking. If artificial life were created, then it would definitely disprove the notion that, "All life comes from God." Of course, that position is a bit questionable even without the creation of artificial life. Unless one states that God created itself, which would prove logically problematic, then a living God would be an exception to the claim.

I don't think that's the main focus of your query though. I think I understand your use of the term "artificial life", but at least at some point in the process it would cease to be artificial and would simply be viewed of as "life." Unless one wanted to argue that God created matter and thus the basic building blocks of this life or that God created humans, so it's an extension of his creating activity, we'd have to admit that God didn't create it.


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Re: Artificial life: can it be created?

Post #65

Post by wannabe »

Artificial life : can it be created ?

Yes - However , will it love its creators ?

Scary stuff.
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Re: Artificial life: can it be created?

Post #66

Post by Inquirer »

DrNoGods wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:21 pm [Replying to Inquirer in post #55]
But that's not logical, unless you can explain the test you apply to decide if something is "convincing" its all well and good to say "Bah, that's not convincing" but unless you have a rational process for doing that evaluation it can be no more that whim, belief surely?
From your response to Difflugia in post 56, it appears you are saying that (unlike coins vs. acorns), a god can't be defined well enough to be very obviously distinguished from something else. If the god can't be defined sufficiently, how could someone possibly evaluate any evidence presented for the existence of that god? That isn't logical.
I'm not here defending a claim I have made, I'm discussing how the atheists can claim "I've never seen evidence for God" - this is a definitive concrete proposition that seems unsupported, if you agree we can press on and explore this further but if you disagree, if you think that claim can be supported I'm all ears.
DrNoGods wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:21 pm In post 34 Diagoras said:

"Not a trap - similar to asking me whether I’d believe in God if he suddenly appeared in front of me and a group of friends, and then performed a miracle."

My criterium would be along those lines (consistent with the Wikipedia statement I've posted many times now concerning empirical evidence). There would have to be some observable action or event that only a god being could do (consistent with that god's definition ... we have invented thousands of them after all with many different characteristics). If my mother had sat up in her casket at her funeral and started speaking I'd be convinced that a god being was involved even if it wasn't physically present, because I know this would be impossible otherwise. That would be convincing evidence. The bar is very high for (me) being convinced that any god being actually exists, because other explanations are far more reasonable and likely (IMO).
Yes but you're going around in circles, when you say "some observable action or event that only a god being could do" yet you do not have any means of evaluating observations to determine this do you?

Why do you form the view that "my mother had sat up in her casket at her funeral and started speaking" would be evidence for God but literally everything else you've ever observed is not?

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Re: Artificial life: can it be created?

Post #67

Post by Inquirer »

brunumb wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:10 pm
Inquirer wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:15 am So how can you reach that conclusion? what characteristic must it have in order to be "convincing" evidence for God?.
There is no one characteristic. It just has to be convincing.
Very well so for atheists its undefined, arbitrary, whim, not a methodological process for deciding, this is what I wanted to demonstrate, so thank you. So if a theist observes something and says "This is convincing evidence for God" that argument is no less legitimate is it? Would you accept the claim God exists because I find X is convincing evidence for God? If not, then why?
brunumb wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:10 pm Everyone has a different threshold of 'gullibility'. Some people are convinced by the fact that they read about God in an old book. Others need a miracle like a god telling them where their car keys can be found after they prayed for help.
Yes, and since there are clearly no definitive tests, no methodology, they are rational to do that surely?
brunumb wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:10 pm In reality, the vast majority of theists did not actually reach their position through the evaluation of any evidence anyway.
That may or may not be true, but what if it is true? Surely if something "convinces" them then that's sufficient? after all you just said "It just has to be convincing".
brunumb wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:10 pm They were inculcated with their belief from a very young age.
Are you saying that beliefs acquired through childhood are always false?
brunumb wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:10 pm The whole evidence schtick comes later when some of them want to somehow rationalise that belief.
brunumb wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:10 pm I don't know what would convince me that a god exists.
Indeed, so you may well have seen evidence for God and simply not perceived it as such, do you agree with this?
brunumb wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:10 pm All I can say is that nothing so far has managed to achieve it. Perhaps a personal miracle in which the laws of the universe are broken, or something that I personally consider to be an impossible event occurs that I actually witness. Hearsay, second-hand stories and anecdotes simply don't cut it. But then, I don't really know where my threshold of 'gullibility' lies.
How can you tell if a law of nature has been broken? surely the obvious reaction to that would be that the assumption it was law in the first place was wrong?

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Re: Artificial life: can it be created?

Post #68

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to Inquirer in post #67]
I'm not here defending a claim I have made, I'm discussing how the atheists can claim "I've never seen evidence for God" - this is a definitive concrete proposition that seems unsupported, if you agree we can press on and explore this further but if you disagree, if you think that claim can be supported I'm all ears.
You posted this in response to my acorns vs. coins comment (on your prior comment to that example from Difflugia), but the above has nothing whatsoever to do with that exchange. Myself (and others) have already given examples of support for the position that we've yet to see any convincining evidence for the existence of gods. Why ignore these and just repeat the same thing you've already gotten answers for?
Yes but you're going around in circles, when you say "some observable action or event that only a god being could do" yet you do not have any means of evaluating observations to determine this do you?
For a god being that is completely defined in terms of what it is, what it can and can't do (back to the acorns vs. coins thing), then yes. But for some nebulous, undefined god "thing" without any concrete definition then no ... no one can because the problem is too ill defined.
Why do you form the view that "my mother had sat up in her casket at her funeral and started speaking" would be evidence for God but literally everything else you've ever observed is not?
This is dirt simple so I'm surprised you'd ask such an obvious question. Humans coming back from the dead has never been confirmed to have ever happened in the history of humans, and we have every reason to believe that it is not possible physiologically because of our understanding of what death is and what it entails. So if it did happen, that might be evidence for some kind of god being. "Everything else" I've observed has far more reasonable and believable explanations that don't require a force or intervention beyond anything known to exist. For things that we've yet to work out the mechanistic details of (eg. origin of the universe, how life arose on Earth, dark matter and dark energy, etc.) a default position that some god being is involved is not justified ... it is the lazy way out.
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Re: Artificial life: can it be created?

Post #69

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to Inquirer in post #68]
Would you accept the claim God exists because I find X is convincing evidence for God?
How many gods to you think exist? Most people who capitalize the word God are monotheists who believe in only one god, but literally thousands of gods have been invented by humans. This is part of the problem in believing that any of them actually exist, or ever did. Are a billion Hindu's wrong today, or were the Greeks, Romans and Egyptians all wrong in the past? Or is the only criterium for demonstrating that a god exists is that someone, somewhere, believes in that god? If that is the case, then there is no point in asking for evidence that gods exist, or do not exist ... it is sufficient only for someone to believe that they do (ie. a private mental state). That kind of stuff is for the Philosophy section.
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Re: Artificial life: can it be created?

Post #70

Post by Clownboat »

Inquirer wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:29 am Very well so for atheists its undefined, arbitrary, whim, not a methodological process for deciding, this is what I wanted to demonstrate, so thank you.
Do you believe in all the available god concepts?
What critieria did you use to evaluate all the other god concepts?

What evidence for Allah was shown to you, that you chose to reject? Or do you say you have never been shown evidence for Allah?

I'm trying to determine if your criteria is undefined, arbitrary, whim, not a methodological process for deciding, so thank you.
brunumb wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:10 pm They were inculcated with their belief from a very young age.
Inquirer wrote:Are you saying that beliefs acquired through childhood are always false?
Just thought I would leave this one hear for the readers to take note of again.

Readers, does one follow from the other and does it not come across as a desperate attempt to dodge the point made about how religions survive by indoctrinating their children? This fact is probably uncomfortable I would imagine and I can see why there would be a desire to pretend it was never made.

The gods seem to have nothing to do with religions surviving though. Odd, no?
Inquirer wrote:Indeed, so you may well have seen evidence for God and simply not perceived it as such, do you agree with this?
Remember, this cuts both ways. You may well have seen evidence for Allah and simply not perceived it. Futile line of reasoning and will get us nowhere. Showing good evidence might get us somewhere, but is there any good evidence for any of the gods? I surely haven't seen any convincing evidence for any god myself, but I'm open.

To the OP: When man invents artificial life, I submit that the claim that all life comes from a god will change to all initial life or some such move of the goal post. Nothing will come of it IMO.
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