The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

[Eloi]

Jehovah's Witnesses regard the Bible as the Word of God that he inspired to be written to instruct his people. That is the direct cause that our people are so different from other religious communities around the world. For example: all Witnesses preach, no Witnesses participate in military matters, we are totally neutral in political matters, etc. I am not talking about a few individuals or small groups of fellow believers with the same principles or beliefs, I am talking about a worldwide community where the more than 8.5 million counted as Jehovah's Witnesses are dedicated, baptized and active public preachers. Furthermore, we all study the same teachings week after week all over the planet. They are direct effects of seriously considering all biblical matters.

Aside from the direct results of being fully guided by the Scriptures, what other evidence do we Witnesses have to consider the Bible as the Word of God? I would like to talk about them little by little on this topic, and although some do not agree, at least you will know what reasons we have for having this point of view on the Bible. First thing, to start on one specific point: prophecies.

To understand the matter of the prophecies that Jehovah's prophets gave in their books, we must first understand one thing: since the Bible was written part by part over a period of about 1600 years, there was already part of the Bible written at the time in which others wrote new inspired books. For example, at the time that Daniel was living in Babylon, he was holding in his hands part of the book that Jeremiah had written some years earlier. This process of writing to join with what has already been written continued throughout the time that the Bible was being completed until it was what we know today. In reality, when Jesus lived as a human, the Scriptures that we call the Old Testament were already complete and he read and studied them.

Although I will talk about other prophecies later, I would like to mention three of them that are especially striking:

1) Did you know that Daniel predicted the time when Jesus would appear as Messiah? How did Daniel know that the Messiah would appear in 29 C.E.?

2) Did you know that the Christians were not destroyed when the Romans attacked Jerusalem in 70 C.E. because Jesus told them more than thirty years before that they had to flee out of there at the right moment?

3) Did you know that the prophet Isaiah predicted more than a century and a half earlier how Babylon would be conquered by the Medo-Persians and even predicted the name of the man who would be directly responsible for that attack?

When we Witnesses see prophecies like these fulfilled, our confidence that the Bible is more than just a book written by men increases. What do critics of the Bible say about biblical prophecies and their fulfillment?

[Difflugia]

You seem to ignore that thousands of Christians speak Hebrew and know Biblical Hebrew.

It has nothing to do with "thousands of Christians". It has to do with how Christian translators have mishandled biblical text over the centuries.

One thing does not imply the other. Another ridiculous argument.

How uncharacteristically self-aware of you.

[Eloi]

You seem to ignore that thousands of Christians speak Hebrew and know Biblical Hebrew.

It has nothing to do with "thousands of Christians". It has to do with how Christian translators have mishandled biblical text over the centuries.

One thing does not imply the other. Another ridiculous argument.

How uncharacteristically self-aware of you.

Don't get personal.
Thank you.

[Difflugia]

One thing does not imply the other. Another ridiculous argument.

How uncharacteristically self-aware of you.

Don't get personal.
Thank you.

I'd say, "don't be ironic," but that's too much of the fun.
Thank you.

[Eloi]

What is ironic in my answer?

[Replying to Eloi in post #97

You seem to ignore that thousands of Christians speak Hebrew and know Biblical Hebrew.

It has nothing to do with "thousands of Christians". It has to do with how Christian translators have mishandled biblical text over the centuries.

https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/ar ... ns-of-text

One thing does not imply the other. Another ridiculous argument.

The fact that "Christians 'translators' have mishandled biblical text over the centuries" has nothing to do with the fact that the prophecy of Dan. 9 is about the Messiah's arrival.

Jews have misinterpreted biblical text over the centuries also ... and that's why they are still waiting for another "messiah".

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Eloi in post #104

The fact that "Christians 'translators' have mishandled biblical text over the centuries" has nothing to do with the fact that the prophecy of Dan. 9 is about the Messiah's arrival.

That's like saying, "The fact that I re-wrote Grandpa's will to make it say that he left me a million dollars has nothing to do with the fact that he left me a million dollars in his will."

Jews have misinterpreted biblical text over the centuries also ... and that's why they are still waiting for another "messiah".

https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/we ... -are-blind

[Eloi]

[Replying to Eloi in post #104

The fact that "Christians 'translators' have mishandled biblical text over the centuries" has nothing to do with the fact that the prophecy of Dan. 9 is about the Messiah's arrival.

That's like saying, "The fact that I re-wrote Grandpa's will to make it say that he left me a million dollars has nothing to do with the fact that he left me a million dollars in his will."

Jews have misinterpreted biblical text over the centuries also ... and that's why they are still waiting for another "messiah".

https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/we ... -are-blind

More nonsensical chit-chat.
Good bye.

PS: For other forumers: check how many interpretations did Jews have about the prophecy about the Messiah in Dan. 9. Some of them even have one that states that there are two messiahs, one after the 7 and another after the 62 weeks. This forumer is pretending that Jews can tell what is the meaning of the prophecy and noone else can. Funny, since modern Jews are not even the shadow of what Jews were in the first century. Actually, that "two messiahs" interpretation originated with the Essenes and today some groups of Jews defend it.

[Difflugia]

More nonsensical chit-chat.
Good bye.

Why, how self-aware...

This forumer is pretending that Jews can tell what is the meaning of the prophecy and noone else can.

Nobody said that, or even obliquely implied it. The Christians have it wrong, but that's not even remotely the same thing.

Actually, that "two messiahs" interpretation originated with the Essenes

We know they subscribed to that view, but it's very unlikely that it was original to them. There are both Talmudic traditions that likely predate the Essenes and later traditions that almost certainly weren't influenced by the Essenes. This is especially likely because while the Essenes interpret Zechariah and Malachi as prophesying mulitple messiahs, they don't directly refer to the Messiah ben Joseph that other Jewish sects do.

and today some groups of Jews defend it.

Perhaps they've actually studied some of the writings in their historical contexts. That would be a novel approach.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Eloi in post #106

PS: For other forumers: check how many interpretations did Jews have about the prophecy about the Messiah in Dan. 9. Some of them even have one that states that there are two messiahs, one after the 7 and another after the 62 weeks.

Some form of the Hebrew word moshiach is used over 150 times in the Jewish bible. Christians consistently translate this word as anointed, except in the ninth chapter of Daniel. In this chapter missionaries deviate from this and other correct translations in an attempt to prove that the messiah came before the destruction of the Second Temple. Rather than speaking about “the messiah,” when read in context and with a correct translation this chapter clearly speaks about two different “anointed” subjects hundreds of years apart. The first is the anointed King Cyrus (Isaiah 45:1) who granted permission to the Jews to return and build the Second Temple 52 years “7 weeks of years” after the destruction of the First Temple. The second is the anointed priesthood (Leviticus 4:3) that was terminated 434 years “62 weeks of years” later.

https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/ar ... he-messiah
(emphasis mine)

[JoeyKnothead]

...
PS: For other forumers:
...

We interrupt this message for an important announcement for, I reckon, other forumers...

Our claimant here has presented, in the OP...

For example, at the time that Daniel was living in Babylon, he was holding in his hands part of the book that Jeremiah had written some years earlier. This process of writing to join with what has already been written continued throughout the time that the Bible was being completed until it was what we know today.

Notice I've challenged our claimant on this alleged part of this book. It's presented as some form of evidence that biblical tales, or at least Eloi's tales can be trusted.

However, Eloi has ignored my dogged efforts to get Eloi to provide this book for examination, so that we can see if it's reliable, and if it relates to biblical / Eloic claims.

Nothing. No support. No retraction. No, "Well about that..."

I propose that in the absence of Eloi supporting said claim, anything and everything that follows that claim is as suspect as me sitting in front of an empty pie tin with a face full of pudding, trying to tell the pretty thing I don't know where it went.

Is it really so hard for Christians to display even a mote of honor in our debates?

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Eloi in post #104

The fact that "Christians 'translators' have mishandled biblical text over the centuries" has nothing to do with the fact that the prophecy of Dan. 9 is about the Messiah's arrival.

That's like saying, "The fact that I re-wrote Grandpa's will to make it say that he left me a million dollars has nothing to do with the fact that he left me a million dollars in his will."

Jews have misinterpreted biblical text over the centuries also ... and that's why they are still waiting for another "messiah".

https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/we ... -are-blind

More nonsensical chit-chat.
Good bye.

PS: For other forumers: check how many interpretations did Jews have about the prophecy about the Messiah in Dan. 9. Some of them even have one that states that there are two messiahs, one after the 7 and another after the 62 weeks. This forumer is pretending that Jews can tell what is the meaning of the prophecy and noone else can. Funny, since modern Jews are not even the shadow of what Jews were in the first century. Actually, that "two messiahs" interpretation originated with the Essenes and today some groups of Jews defend it.

There's a nice example of the 'Running away' that Bible critics got accused of in a recent post. I also mentioned that Daniel is a waste of time as prophecy, either of past or of future. it can be shown to be history of the Ptolemaic wars cast as Prophecy (just as the 'prophecy' of the destruction of the temple was written after the Jewish war) passage by passage and is nothing to do with the NT, Jesus or the future.

So fiddling around with the 'weeks of Years' or however Jews might interpret it, is irrelevant - it isn't prophecy either for the NT or for today.

Cue: "your scientist Newton worked out the weeks of years".