The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

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Eloi
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The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #1

Post by Eloi »

Jehovah's Witnesses regard the Bible as the Word of God that he inspired to be written to instruct his people. That is the direct cause that our people are so different from other religious communities around the world. For example: all Witnesses preach, no Witnesses participate in military matters, we are totally neutral in political matters, etc. I am not talking about a few individuals or small groups of fellow believers with the same principles or beliefs, I am talking about a worldwide community where the more than 8.5 million counted as Jehovah's Witnesses are dedicated, baptized and active public preachers. Furthermore, we all study the same teachings week after week all over the planet. They are direct effects of seriously considering all biblical matters.

Aside from the direct results of being fully guided by the Scriptures, what other evidence do we Witnesses have to consider the Bible as the Word of God? I would like to talk about them little by little on this topic, and although some do not agree, at least you will know what reasons we have for having this point of view on the Bible. First thing, to start on one specific point: prophecies.

To understand the matter of the prophecies that Jehovah's prophets gave in their books, we must first understand one thing: since the Bible was written part by part over a period of about 1600 years, there was already part of the Bible written at the time in which others wrote new inspired books. For example, at the time that Daniel was living in Babylon, he was holding in his hands part of the book that Jeremiah had written some years earlier. This process of writing to join with what has already been written continued throughout the time that the Bible was being completed until it was what we know today. In reality, when Jesus lived as a human, the Scriptures that we call the Old Testament were already complete and he read and studied them.

Although I will talk about other prophecies later, I would like to mention three of them that are especially striking:

1) Did you know that Daniel predicted the time when Jesus would appear as Messiah? How did Daniel know that the Messiah would appear in 29 C.E.?

2) Did you know that the Christians were not destroyed when the Romans attacked Jerusalem in 70 C.E. because Jesus told them more than thirty years before that they had to flee out of there at the right moment?

3) Did you know that the prophet Isaiah predicted more than a century and a half earlier how Babylon would be conquered by the Medo-Persians and even predicted the name of the man who would be directly responsible for that attack?

When we Witnesses see prophecies like these fulfilled, our confidence that the Bible is more than just a book written by men increases. What do critics of the Bible say about biblical prophecies and their fulfillment?

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Re: The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #71

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to Eloi in post #68

You may correct the translational changes, but without the changes the Christian calculation doesn't work out.
Can a false prophet predict the destruction of God's temple?
A false prophet can get mixed up on when he's supposed to return:

When they persecute you in one city, flee to another; for truly I say to you, you will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives.
(Matthew 10:23)

And there's still the matter of Jesus straddling the fence on the law of Moses.

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Re: The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #72

Post by Eloi »

Athetotheist wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:02 am [Replying to Eloi in post #68

You may correct the translational changes, but without the changes the Christian calculation doesn't work out.
Can a false prophet predict the destruction of God's temple?
A false prophet can get mixed up on when he's supposed to return:

When they persecute you in one city, flee to another; for truly I say to you, you will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives.
(Matthew 10:23)

And there's still the matter of Jesus straddling the fence on the law of Moses.
Tell me something: where was "Israel" in Jesus time? :?:

Acts 1:6 So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction. 8 But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you, and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the most distant part of the earth.”

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Re: The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #73

Post by Eloi »

About:

Luke 19:43 Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification of pointed stakes and will encircle you and besiege you from every side.

... our Study Bible has this note:

fortification of pointed stakes: Or “palisade.” The Greek word khaʹrax occurs only here in the Christian Greek Scriptures. It has been defined as a “pointed stick or post used to fence in an area; stake” and also as a “military installation involving the use of stakes; palisade.” Jesus’ words came true in the year 70 C.E. when the Romans, commanded by Titus, erected a siege wall, or palisade, around Jerusalem. Titus’ objective was threefold​—to prevent the Jews from fleeing, to encourage their surrender, and to starve the inhabitants into submission. To provide materials for the construction of this fortification around Jerusalem, Roman troops stripped the countryside of trees. https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwt ... y=discover

About:

Matt. 24:2 In response he said to them: “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, by no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.”

... a note says:

by no means will a stone be left here upon a stone: Jesus’ prophecy was remarkably fulfilled in 70 C.E. when the Romans demolished Jerusalem and its temple. Apart from a few sections of the wall, the city was completely leveled.

We can see the level of detail in Jesus' prophecy about the siege of Jerusalem that led to its total destruction.

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Re: The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #74

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to Eloi in post #73
... a note says:

by no means will a stone be left here upon a stone: Jesus’ prophecy was remarkably fulfilled in 70 C.E. when the Romans demolished Jerusalem and its temple. Apart from a few sections of the wall, the city was completely leveled.

We can see the level of detail in Jesus' prophecy about the siege of Jerusalem that led to its total destruction.
Yes. We can see that the level of detail was inaccurate. There were quite a few stones left on stones (the entire western wall of the temple courtyard is still there, and a world-famous site at that). It's like the prophecy was written by someone who was writing after the fall of Jerusalem, but who was careless in the details he had Jesus give.

So, do you now make an excuse for the prophecy not being "remarkably fulfilled"?

And there's still the matter of Jesus straddling the fence on the law of Moses.

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Re: The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #75

Post by Eloi »

The city was totally demolished, but "a few sections of the wall", as the note says.
Don't you like that the prophecy was fulfilled? O:)

Matt. 24:1 Now as Jesus was departing from the temple, his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 In response he said to them: “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, by no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.”

Mark 13:1 As he was going out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him: “Teacher, see! what wonderful stones and buildings!” 2 However, Jesus said to him: “Do you see these great buildings? By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.”

Luke 21:5 Later, when some were speaking about the temple, how it was adorned with fine stones and dedicated things, 6 he said: “As for these things that you now see, the days will come when not a stone will be left upon a stone and not be thrown down.”

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Re: The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #76

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to Eloi in post #75
The city was totally demolished, but "a few sections of the wall", as the note says.
Don't you like that the prophecy was fulfilled?
And when he got nearby, he viewed the city and wept over it, saying: “If you, even you, had discerned on this day the things having to do with peace—but now they have been hidden from your eyes. Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification of pointed stakes and will encircle you and besiege you from every side. They will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected." (Luke 19:41-44)

The temple----and the temple walls----were in the city.

And there's still the matter of Jesus straddling the fence on the law of Moses.

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Re: The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #77

Post by Eloi »

Jesus’ prophecy came true right down to fine detail.

Had we no other sources of information than the gospels we should be tempted to suspect that the warnings of Jesus were couched in hyperbolical [exaggerated] language . . . Was it possible that of that mighty Temple not one stone should be left upon another, that should not be cast down? It was indeed possible; it is historical fact. The destruction was utter and complete . . . The whole tragic story had been foretold with startling accuracy.” (G. A. Williamson, Introduction to Josephus’ The Jewish War)

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1984361

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Re: The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #78

Post by Clownboat »

Eloi wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 5:22 pm Funny how the enemies of the Bible fool themselves
This Us vs Them mentality that you have in your mind is cult behavior. It allows the cult to unite against a common made up enemy, in this case you invent enemies of the Bible.

I'm going to prophesy that you are a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Now how could I know this when I'm responding to post 30? Do you think that maybe I learned about this afterwords and then referenced an earlier writing to thereby make it seem like I had info that I shouldn't have had?

How could that be possible? :roll:

Apparently I am a prophet for knowing your religion in post 30 before you had made mention of it! Blessed be!
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Re: The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #79

Post by Athetotheist »

Athetotheist wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:41 pm [Replying to Eloi in post #75
The city was totally demolished, but "a few sections of the wall", as the note says.
Don't you like that the prophecy was fulfilled?
And when he got nearby, he viewed the city and wept over it, saying: “If you, even you, had discerned on this day the things having to do with peace—but now they have been hidden from your eyes. Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification of pointed stakes and will encircle you and besiege you from every side. They will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected." (Luke 19:41-44)

The temple----and the temple walls----were in the city.
Eloi wrote:Jesus’ prophecy came true right down to fine detail.
Did it?

https://www.nbcnews.com/sciencemain/dis ... 2d11687560

And there's still the matter of Jesus straddling the fence on the law of Moses.

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Re: The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #80

Post by Eloi »

The city was razed. Was any stone left on another stone? Perhaps... and yet that doesn't change the fact that the prophecy was fulfilled. If you were to ask anyone who lived at the time Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, what would they tell you about Jesus' prophecy and its fulfillment? Well, you have the opportunity to read historians of the time like Josephus. Perhaps they can tell you more about the reality that was lived... which is much more than your desire to contradict and deny the prophecy.

About the temple? Well, nothing remains of that temple. The so-called Wailing Wall did not belong to the temple, it was an outer wall. Only a section of that wall still stands... as a memorial to what it means to disobey Jehovah. The same remained a corner of the city of Jericho when it was demolished; Rahab lived there, and even so, the destruction of Jericho left a memory for all who read the story.

Don't you like Bible prophecies? It doesn't matter... there they are for you to see and learn that the prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled will be fulfilled without fail. ;)

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