Jesus' body -Was it flesh or spirit after his resurrection?

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Jesus' body -Was it flesh or spirit after his resurrection?

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Post by Revelations won »

Jesus' body - Was it Flesh or Spirit after his resurrection?

My answer is a resounding YES!

The JW’s claim others wise. According to the JW.org they state the following:

“The Bible says that Jesus “ was put to death in the flesh, but made alive {resurrected } in the spirit.”

My response:

The JW’s have added a word to suit their doctrine for the scripture actually states as follows:

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

They next state the following: “Jesus’ own words showed that he would not be resurrected with his flesh and blood body. They use the following scriptures to support their claim:

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

They claim: “If he had taken back his flesh when he was resurrected, he would have cancelled that ransom sacrifice. This could not have happened, though, for the Bible says that he sacrificed his flesh and blood “once for all time”. They use :




Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

My response: Hebrews 9:12 which they use to support their claim says nothing regarding “his flesh” as they claim, for the scripture they reference in their support only says “but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place” There is no mention of flesh found in that verse.

The JW’s also claim: “After his resurrection, Jesus also assumed human form temporarily, just as angels had previously done. As a spirit creature, though, he was able to appear and disappear suddenly Luke 24:31, John 20:19, John 20:19,26.

My response: We should so note in Luke 24:verses 30 and 31 reads as follows:

Luke 24:
30
And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31
And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

The above verses do not limit Christ from appearing in the flesh and likewise disappearing.

As further proof that he had a resurrected body of flesh and bones we should consider the following:


Luke 24:33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34
Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35
And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
36
And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37
But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38
And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40
And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41
And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42
And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43
And he took it, and did eat before them.

(I cannot imagine anything more powerful which the risen Christ could have done to demonstrate to the disciples that he indeed truly had a body of flesh and bones, but as further proof they then gave him a piece of broiled fish and a honey comb which he then ate.
Christ also reminded them that they were witnesses of these things.
44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48
And ye are witnesses of these things.


John 20:
24
But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25
The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30
And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:



For the JW’s to claim that the risen Christ did not have a resurrected body of flesh and bones it is obvious that THEY MUST CLEARLY DENY THE WITNESSES OF THE DISCIPLES AND OF JESUS HIMSELF.

As a final note I will agree that the risen Lord did not have a resurrected body of “flesh and blood” as they claim.

But nowhere in scripture does it state that Christ or we cannot have a resurrected body of “flesh and bones” as demonstrated AND SO DULY TESTIFIED BY NONE OTHER THAN THE LORD HIMSELF.!

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: Jesus' body -Was it flesh or spirit after his resurrection?

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Post by Miles »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:34 pm Jesus' body - Was it Flesh or Spirit after his resurrection?

My answer is a resounding YES!
IOW: "YES, it was Flesh or Spirit after his resurrection!" Nice, but please tell us how your resounding answer tells us anything of any significance or interest.



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Re: Jesus' body -Was it flesh or spirit after his resurrection?

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Post by Revelations won »

Greetings Miles,

To put it simply, my YES answer was to clarify that Christ's physical body was resurrected and again reunited with his spirit body. Our spirit body reunited with our physical body after our death and resurrection are then eternally joined, never to taste of death again. You should remember that death is simply the separation of our physical body from our spirit body. There is no teaching of Jesus that our spirit has died at the time of death.

You should remember that Christ also went and preached unto the un-resurrected spirits in the spirit prison who were disobedient in the days of Noah. This must have been a very important event or mission for Christ to perform for the benefit of those individuals. Do you suppose that they after such a long wait that they may have had an improved repentant attitude that they might have better prepared for a better resurrection?

I find it a bit amazing that the JW's can come up with a doctrine that Jesus Christ's spirit body was resurrected, when there is no clear doctrine taught in the Bible that his spirit ever died, much less even needed a resurrection.
As I see it their position is clearly a "man made doctrine".

Best regards,
RW

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Re: Jesus' body -Was it flesh or spirit after his resurrection?

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Post by Miles »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:46 pm Greetings Miles,

To put it simply, my YES answer was to clarify that Christ's physical body was resurrected and again reunited with his spirit body. Our spirit body reunited with our physical body after our death and resurrection are then eternally joined, never to taste of death again. You should remember that death is simply the separation of our physical body from our spirit body. There is no teaching of Jesus that our spirit has died at the time of death.
So in heaven, and in hell, everyone has an actual physical body? One made of true flesh, bone, and blood? If so, I imagine it's only because it has to exist in an actual physical heaven and hell that are composed of true rock and water. Got a physical location for these two eternal abodes?



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Re: Jesus' body -Was it flesh or spirit after his resurrection?

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Post by onewithhim »

Miles wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:46 pm
Revelations won wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:34 pm Jesus' body - Was it Flesh or Spirit after his resurrection?

My answer is a resounding YES!
IOW: "YES, it was Flesh or Spirit after his resurrection!" Nice, but please tell us how your resounding answer tells us anything of any significance or interest.



.
To throw my 2 cents in......Jesus did not take back his physical body after his resurrection, because if he did he would be taking back his sacrifice! His position as a physical human being was over and done with. He then was ready to go back to heaven, having been raised in a spirit body. (No flesh and blood in heaven; I Corinthians 15:50.) He materialized a body of flesh when appearing in the midst of his disciples after his resurrection, just as angels did in previous times (John 20:19,26; Genesis 19:1). You notice that the doors were locked when Jesus appeared in their midst.

Yes, it is clear that Jesus was raised up as the mighty spirit being he was before he came to the earth. These verses are explicit:

"So it is written: 'The first man Adam became a living person.' The last Adam [Christ] became a life-giving SPIRIT." (I Corinthians 15:45)

"...He [Christ] was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the SPIRIT." (I Peter 3:18)

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Re: Jesus' body -Was it flesh or spirit after his resurrection?

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Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to Revelations won in post #3]

When Jesus was raised up as a spirit being, he went and "preached to the spirits in prison." These were the DEMONS who had disobeyed in the days of Noah and came to Earth to cohabit with human women. God caused them to be, thenceforth, in spiritual darkness (which is what "Tartarus" is), which is the "prison" they found themselves in. So, Jesus was in a spirit body to be able to go to those demons and speak to them. (I Peter 3:19,20)

It wasn't the people of Noah's day that Jesus went to speak to, because those people were still dead, and the dead "don't know anything at all" (they are truly dead). (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

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Re: Jesus' body -Was it flesh or spirit after his resurrection?

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Post by myth-one.com »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:34 pm They (The Jehovah Witnesses) claim: “If he had taken back his flesh when he was resurrected, he would have cancelled that ransom sacrifice.
This incorrect theology that Jesus' death on the cross is a ransom sacrifice is taught by virtually every Christion denomination -- not simply the Jehovah's Witnesses!

But that is not what saves us!

Two deaths are defined in the Bible, the first and the second.

The first death is appointed to all mankind as a consequence of being born as a man:
Hebrews 9:27 wrote:And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Jesus' crucifixion was His appointed, and thus unavoidable first death.

All of us will suffer a first death also. His first death does not save us from our first death.

The wages of sin is not the first death. The wages of sin is the second death!

It can only be deemed a sacrifice in that the word did not have to agree to become flesh as the man Jesus.

But once the Word agreed to do so, when Jesus became a man, He could not avoid His first death according to the scriptures.

How can something unavoidable be deemed a sacrifice?

Can a person on death row, offer his execution as a ransom for the others on death row?

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Re: Jesus' body -Was it flesh or spirit after his resurrection?

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Post by Revelations won »

Dear Onewithhim,

I am sorry you fail to understand that we all are spirit sons and daughters of our Father in heaven as the scriptures so testify.

As such it is obvious that you also fail to understand that we existed as angels who kept their first estate and became worthy to come to this wonderful earth which was created by Jesus Christ. Our spirit bodies were then provided a physical body by earthly parents who were given the divine power of pro-creation to be used in Holy matrimony. This physical body we term as our second estate wherein we are given the power to choose good or evil during our mortal probation here on earth.

God’s plans never fail. Our mortal probation on this earth is a very vital and necessary part of his plan, for in this state we are given the mighty power of agency wherein we can have full freedom to act and not be acted upon.

This advancement to our second estate was earned by each of us in heaven during our first estate by choosing to follow the divine plan established by God our Father. This plan was carefully presented in heaven and we chose to follow it by our own act of agency. While a third part of our siblings chose to follow Lucifer and forfeited forever their chance of mortality.

We should so clearly observe that even the first born son of God, even Jesus must according to divine plan come to earth and be tried and tested in all cases as we are and the scriptures make it very clear “that though he were a son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered and being made perfect become the author of eternal salvation to all who chose to obey Gods commandments.”

The resurrection provided by Jesus Christ thus provided a wonderful resurrection of immortal flesh and bone bodies for each of us after the manner of his resurrection. These immortal bodies of flesh and bone are then according to our obedience may become joint heirs with Christ and also receive all the the Father hath.

This is my take on this topic. If you can show otherwise, let’s hear it.

Kind regards,
RW
10-31-2021*******************

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Re: Jesus' body -Was it flesh or spirit after his resurrection?

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Post by onewithhim »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:32 pm Dear Onewithhim,

I am sorry you fail to understand that we all are spirit sons and daughters of our Father in heaven as the scriptures so testify.

As such it is obvious that you also fail to understand that we existed as angels who kept their first estate and became worthy to come to this wonderful earth which was created by Jesus Christ.

Kind regards,
RW
10-31-2021*******************
I also am sorry---that you fail to understand that we humans were created to live on this earth forever, and Adam had no prior existence before he was created. There is nothing in the Scriptures to suggest that we all existed as angels before our birth on this earth. We are not spirits that were given bodies. Where do you get that idea? The only spirit each of us has is the breath of life that comes from God to keep us alive.

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Re: Jesus' body -Was it flesh or spirit after his resurrection?

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Post by Revelations won »

Dear Onewithhim,

You said:

“Post #9
Post
by onewithhim » Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:38 am
Revelations won wrote: ↑
Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:32 pm
Dear Onewithhim,

Quote: “I also am sorry---that you fail to understand that we humans were created to live on this earth forever, and Adam had no prior existence before he was created. There is nothing in the Scriptures to suggest that we all existed as angels before our birth on this earth. We are not spirits that were given bodies. Where do you get that idea? The only spirit each of us has is the breath of life that comes from God to keep us alive.”


My response:

I find your response very interesting to say the least.

You claim that there is nothing in the scriptures to suggest that we all existed as spirits or angels before our birth.

Let us examine some of the scriptures relating to the Antemortal existence of man.



Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2
Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3
Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Isaiah 14:
12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16
They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17
That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
18
All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
19
But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
20
Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.





Numbers 16:
22
And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?


Deuteronomy 14:1 Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

Job 32:
8
But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

I quote the very words of Christ below.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

1 Corinthjians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.

1 Peter 3: 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

In conclusion it appears to me that you have chosen to ignore and deny the vast amount of scripture quoted above in order To assert your claim that “THERE IS NOTHING IN THE SCRIPTURES TO SUGGEST THE PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE OF MAN We are not spirits that were given bodies. Where do you get that idea?”.

I leave it to all visitors and posters to examine carefully to see which position is correct.

Kind regards,
RW

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