Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....
Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?
Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
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Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Post #1In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Post #51I have another follow up question for 1213, Tam, JW, and any other theist interested....
Since humans are God's highest priority, verses all other living things on earth, why create 'creatures' to roam the earth for millions/billions of years, prior to humans being created?
Since humans are God's highest priority, verses all other living things on earth, why create 'creatures' to roam the earth for millions/billions of years, prior to humans being created?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Post #52Moderator Commentnobspeople wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:03 pm If you think a personal opinion is baseless simply because it's not biblical vomit...
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Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Post #53If only for me, Christianity's biggest problem yet is a failure to show a god exists, he knocked up a married chick against his don't bed with married chicks rule, that human god hybrids are viable, and how dead folks can just hop up and and stroll about town.
And, ya know, all that other unprovable stuff so many of em spout as (T)ruth.
It's not just a failure we're looking at. It's failure of -ahem- biblical proportion.
And, ya know, all that other unprovable stuff so many of em spout as (T)ruth.
It's not just a failure we're looking at. It's failure of -ahem- biblical proportion.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Post #54In Genesis 9:3-4 god tells us that a person cannot cut off the limb of a living animal. In Exodus, the Ten Commandments reminds us that we are supposed to treat animals with respect and care, particularly those who work our lands. Genesis 2:18–19, animals are not created as resources for Adam, but rather companions with Adam.POI wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:11 am I have another follow up question for 1213, Tam, JW, and any other theist interested....
Since humans are God's highest priority, verses all other living things on earth, why create 'creatures' to roam the earth for millions/billions of years, prior to humans being created?
Yet it seems god allows suffering to continue when it could do something about it NOW, not 'in his time'.
Seems to be god's go-to MO: 'do what I say not what I do' type of thing.
Again.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Post #55[Replying to tam in post #41]
Do you not see I simply stated that that's the opinion of many, not fact, and that some don't agree with it?
Making that claim (in his time) is excusing god for what it can change RIGHT NOW. Do you not see that? Or do you not want to see that because it flies in the face of your dogma?
Do you know what reality we live in? Prove it. We will all wait. In the meantime:
Why would there be no order, security or reason? Prove that to be true. We will all wait. In the meantime:
Why would someone who doesn't believe in god want or expect its promises (which some argue are still 'pending') and covenants to be trusted? A god that (for those that believe) created everything, allowed sin to enter into this 'everything', 'mess it up', then march back in the garden like a spoiled child mad at what happened, when it knew it was going to happen (or it's not all knowing)?
Why would anyone want to trust that thing unless they need to have something bigger than them in which they can rely on while ignoring all common sense? You expect people to trust such a thing? Remember, I was a practicing christian for decades (longer than some on this site have been alive). I once bought into all that bunk, but wised up and saw it as a 'man made myth' that is used to control people and dupe them out of their money, lives and control. Christianity even says 'give up all and follow' me. How is that not insisting on control?
Now, we can argue over if god really said that or if it's the religion that says that or if it's teachers of the religion that says that until the fat cows come home and sing while cooking brunch for your in-laws. But we won't get anywhere.
Why?
Because this religion and belief in a magic, bearded, cloud riding man in the sky has 'faith' and 'belief' involved with it (no truth or facts that can be tested and verified). Faith actively denounces knowledge. With knowledge, faith is dead. Gone. Unneeded. Superfluous.
And on and on you go.
Basically, what it boils down to is this:
You seem to believe (not think) 'god knows what's best' and that's sufficient and allows for suffering. I suspect many feel this way. But that doesn't make it correct or god caring as many claim (personally, I think anyone that excuses such a being is just as bad as that being).
Why not?
Because god (if the all-whatever god many claim it is) could change it, and if it cares for humanity, it would.
But it doesn't.
So the options are thus:
god is machoistic and loves watching suffering &/or
god can't do anything about it or
god doesn't want to do anything about it (and we're back to the machoistic comment above) or
there is no god to do anything about it.
All options are either sad or disgusting.
And such is this worshipped christian god (and yes, for your benefit, that's an opinion).
Why would you say that when you, yourself, offer opinions as 'truth' and 'fact'?In other words, it was just an opinion with nothing to back it.
I never said you didn't respond to that.This is the world god allowed simply by being god and all knowing - nobspeople
I responded to that.
Do you not see I simply stated that that's the opinion of many, not fact, and that some don't agree with it?
If it's all knowing, yes. But that doesn't mean it's not stopping suffering when it could AND still get the end result it wants. Or or or... change the end result to benefit those suffering - the innocent suffering that it allows in its world RIGHT NOW, not 'in his time'.It does mean that He knows what is needed (and when) to bring about His promise (which is no more suffering, or mourning, or death).
Making that claim (in his time) is excusing god for what it can change RIGHT NOW. Do you not see that? Or do you not want to see that because it flies in the face of your dogma?
Great that you have that opinion, which you've shown all too often your eager to chastise others of having.I think when people say this they are speaking more of a fantasy genie in a bottle,
Can you point to anyone making such a claim (nothing is connected and there's no such thins as 'cause and effect'? Or is this simply another opinion?I think when people say this they are speaking more of a fantasy genie in a bottle, where nothing is connected to anything else, there is no such thing as 'cause and effect' or 'action and reaction'.
Many things to address here:That is not the reality that we live in. In fact, who would want to live in that reality? There would be no order, no security, no reason, even God's promises and covenants could not be trusted.
Do you know what reality we live in? Prove it. We will all wait. In the meantime:
Why would there be no order, security or reason? Prove that to be true. We will all wait. In the meantime:
Why would someone who doesn't believe in god want or expect its promises (which some argue are still 'pending') and covenants to be trusted? A god that (for those that believe) created everything, allowed sin to enter into this 'everything', 'mess it up', then march back in the garden like a spoiled child mad at what happened, when it knew it was going to happen (or it's not all knowing)?
Why would anyone want to trust that thing unless they need to have something bigger than them in which they can rely on while ignoring all common sense? You expect people to trust such a thing? Remember, I was a practicing christian for decades (longer than some on this site have been alive). I once bought into all that bunk, but wised up and saw it as a 'man made myth' that is used to control people and dupe them out of their money, lives and control. Christianity even says 'give up all and follow' me. How is that not insisting on control?
Now, we can argue over if god really said that or if it's the religion that says that or if it's teachers of the religion that says that until the fat cows come home and sing while cooking brunch for your in-laws. But we won't get anywhere.
Why?
Because this religion and belief in a magic, bearded, cloud riding man in the sky has 'faith' and 'belief' involved with it (no truth or facts that can be tested and verified). Faith actively denounces knowledge. With knowledge, faith is dead. Gone. Unneeded. Superfluous.
Knowing and doing are two totally different concepts which you seem to be 'forgetting'.But if you recognize that we do exist in a world that does have order, that actions do have reactions, that there is such a thing as cause and effect, that our actions do affect others, and theirs affect us... and you add in that God is all-knowing, then as stated at the start, God knows what needs to be done (and when) to bring about His plan, His promises, including bringing us to be mature and empathetic and wise beings.
Liking it or not has nothing to do with it. I explained why this isn't valid (more than once). Best ya' got? Sure. Valid? No. Unless parents are all knowing and all powerful and all creating. Can you show that to be true? We will wait.That does not mean it (parent/god analog) is not valid. Someone not liking it also does not mean it is not valid.
And on and on you go.
Basically, what it boils down to is this:
You seem to believe (not think) 'god knows what's best' and that's sufficient and allows for suffering. I suspect many feel this way. But that doesn't make it correct or god caring as many claim (personally, I think anyone that excuses such a being is just as bad as that being).
Why not?
Because god (if the all-whatever god many claim it is) could change it, and if it cares for humanity, it would.
But it doesn't.
So the options are thus:
god is machoistic and loves watching suffering &/or
god can't do anything about it or
god doesn't want to do anything about it (and we're back to the machoistic comment above) or
there is no god to do anything about it.
All options are either sad or disgusting.
And such is this worshipped christian god (and yes, for your benefit, that's an opinion).
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Post #56Good citations. Makes you wonder, either the writers were a bit dense and didn't realize how contradictory the God was that they were depicting, or perhaps the God they were depicting doesn't fit the 'omnipotent Being' mold you all keep trying to impose upon it... (Christians / theists included.)nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:32 amIn Genesis 9:3-4 god tells us that a person cannot cut off the limb of a living animal. In Exodus, the Ten Commandments reminds us that we are supposed to treat animals with respect and care, particularly those who work our lands. Genesis 2:18–19, animals are not created as resources for Adam, but rather companions with Adam.POI wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:11 am I have another follow up question for 1213, Tam, JW, and any other theist interested....
Since humans are God's highest priority, verses all other living things on earth, why create 'creatures' to roam the earth for millions/billions of years, prior to humans being created?
Yet it seems god allows suffering to continue when it could do something about it NOW, not 'in his time'.
Seems to be god's go-to MO: 'do what I say not what I do' type of thing.
Again.
Personally, I think they were at least as sharp as the folks posting on this board, so hard to believe that they would make such a mess of things...
On POIs question, the answer is simple. We were made in Gen 1 to take care of it all and continue God's work. To take on the mantle so to speak. So it's not that we are 'highest priority.' The 'highest priority' is filling the earth with all the kinds of life that Gen 1 lays out and subduing it (see Gen 1:26-28). It's rather that we are needed to make sure it all continues to happen as planned.
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Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Post #57There are some sharp peps on here. A few. Most are, well... (I love you all! )theophile wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:02 amGood citations. Makes you wonder, either the writers were a bit dense and didn't realize how contradictory the God was that they were depicting, or perhaps the God they were depicting doesn't fit the 'omnipotent Being' mold you all keep trying to impose upon it... (Christians / theists included.)nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:32 amIn Genesis 9:3-4 god tells us that a person cannot cut off the limb of a living animal. In Exodus, the Ten Commandments reminds us that we are supposed to treat animals with respect and care, particularly those who work our lands. Genesis 2:18–19, animals are not created as resources for Adam, but rather companions with Adam.POI wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:11 am I have another follow up question for 1213, Tam, JW, and any other theist interested....
Since humans are God's highest priority, verses all other living things on earth, why create 'creatures' to roam the earth for millions/billions of years, prior to humans being created?
Yet it seems god allows suffering to continue when it could do something about it NOW, not 'in his time'.
Seems to be god's go-to MO: 'do what I say not what I do' type of thing.
Again.
Personally, I think they were at least as sharp as the folks posting on this board, so hard to believe that they would make such a mess of things...
On POIs question, the answer is simple. We were made in Gen 1 to take care of it all and continue God's work. To take on the mantle so to speak. So it's not that we are 'highest priority.' The 'highest priority' is filling the earth with all the kinds of life that Gen 1 lays out and subduing it (see Gen 1:26-28). It's rather that we are needed to make sure it all continues to happen as planned.
In reference to the writers making a mess of things or not, I suspect that would apply if they were all in communication with each other during said writing. I'm not sure that's the case. That said, I wouldn't say the writers made a mess, as such, but the people who put all the books together later, ignored other ones, edited the 'right' ones and translated them over the years.
After all, those people were imperfect as the rest of you and capable of mistakes (honest or otherwise) and agendas. Seems christians need to have more faith in these people than any deity, but that's a topic for another thread I suspect.
You mention subduing life. What do you mean, exactly? And by whose plan?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Post #58This does not address my question. My question was (paraphrased) - Why did God create other 'creatures' millions/billions of years before 'man', if humans are the 'focus'? --- By 'focus', I mean humans are the ones for which God will interact, and later come back in 'human form', to 'save'? Humans cannot do "god's word", as you put it, if we did not arrive on the scene until a billion(s) of years later. Prior to this, it's safe to assume animals were subject to 'natural evil', which is curious as many here are arguing that 'evil' was not introduced until the fall of man?.?.?.?.?
Does this mean Jesus came back to 'save' other creatures? Does this mean Jesus/god regularly interacts with other creatures? Does this mean the Bible focuses on Jesus/God's interaction with other creatures more-so than humans? Does this mean "God made other creatures in His image" - (Gen. 1-26)? Regardless of what verbiage you wish to use, in place of "priority", Jesus/God's focus is to 'redeem' humans, and no others. Logic would tell the reader that humans are the highest 'priority', in comparison to all other creatures. Thus, I disagree with your logic.
The provided passage states that God made humans in His image. Since no other creatures fit that description, that means were are the 'highest priority'. In that passage, God also states humans are to rule over other animals. Hence, again, we are higher priority.
Which then makes me re-ask the same question again. If God wanted humans to rule over animals, why create animals millions of years before humans? And to boot, why allow animals to suffer, especially if 'evil' did not occur until after the fall of man?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Post #59You make compelling points. I doubt your responses will be satisfactory. But good lucknobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:32 amIn Genesis 9:3-4 god tells us that a person cannot cut off the limb of a living animal. In Exodus, the Ten Commandments reminds us that we are supposed to treat animals with respect and care, particularly those who work our lands. Genesis 2:18–19, animals are not created as resources for Adam, but rather companions with Adam.POI wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:11 am I have another follow up question for 1213, Tam, JW, and any other theist interested....
Since humans are God's highest priority, verses all other living things on earth, why create 'creatures' to roam the earth for millions/billions of years, prior to humans being created?
Yet it seems god allows suffering to continue when it could do something about it NOW, not 'in his time'.
Seems to be god's go-to MO: 'do what I say not what I do' type of thing.
Again.
I'm still optimistic that the following will be addressed by any theist here...?
A) If the fall of man, is what brought evil into the world, then did natural evil exist prior to man? If the answer is no, then maybe the theist can explain what a parasite ate before the fall? Or how 'natural disasters' never imposed it's will upon the living animals prior to humans? Or, if 'natural disasters' did impose it's will upon the living creatures, did all imposed upon animals only enjoy it? Or, would the theist instead argue that no 'natural evil' took place at all, prior to the fall of man, and that parasites did not feast upon animal hosts, or that no dinosaurs ate meat, that all animals lived perpetually until the fall, or only died peacefully in their sleep/other, etc etc etc?
B) Since humans are the focus, via Gen 1:26-28, why only bring them into the mix billions of years later? Seems as though humans would have been created, at or near the beginning of 'creation', to manage the planet, and fulfill God's will? What was the purpose for God to merely watch agents roam around, who cannot ever worship Him?
Last edited by POI on Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Post #60There certainly are different theologies at play across the various writers, redactors, editors, etc., of the biblical 'corpus' (including canonical and non-canonical texts). But I do think that certain books should take precedence over others. For instance, certain Pauline letters. I would favor Romans and Corinthians over those of suspected authorship. And I would always favor Genesis over all else. Genesis is essentially the OT of the OT. So when in doubt, go to the heart of it all, and check anything else you read / think against it.nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:11 amThere are some sharp peps on here. A few. Most are, well... (I love you all! )theophile wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:02 amGood citations. Makes you wonder, either the writers were a bit dense and didn't realize how contradictory the God was that they were depicting, or perhaps the God they were depicting doesn't fit the 'omnipotent Being' mold you all keep trying to impose upon it... (Christians / theists included.)nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:32 amIn Genesis 9:3-4 god tells us that a person cannot cut off the limb of a living animal. In Exodus, the Ten Commandments reminds us that we are supposed to treat animals with respect and care, particularly those who work our lands. Genesis 2:18–19, animals are not created as resources for Adam, but rather companions with Adam.POI wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:11 am I have another follow up question for 1213, Tam, JW, and any other theist interested....
Since humans are God's highest priority, verses all other living things on earth, why create 'creatures' to roam the earth for millions/billions of years, prior to humans being created?
Yet it seems god allows suffering to continue when it could do something about it NOW, not 'in his time'.
Seems to be god's go-to MO: 'do what I say not what I do' type of thing.
Again.
Personally, I think they were at least as sharp as the folks posting on this board, so hard to believe that they would make such a mess of things...
On POIs question, the answer is simple. We were made in Gen 1 to take care of it all and continue God's work. To take on the mantle so to speak. So it's not that we are 'highest priority.' The 'highest priority' is filling the earth with all the kinds of life that Gen 1 lays out and subduing it (see Gen 1:26-28). It's rather that we are needed to make sure it all continues to happen as planned.
In reference to the writers making a mess of things or not, I suspect that would apply if they were all in communication with each other during said writing. I'm not sure that's the case. That said, I wouldn't say the writers made a mess, as such, but the people who put all the books together later, ignored other ones, edited the 'right' ones and translated them over the years.
That said, I do think there is a remarkably deep consistency for the most part. Obviously I can't prove that in any shape or form, but it's amazing how much, for instance, Revelation plays with / refers to / builds on Genesis. Or how you can see themes get further developed across, say, Genesis, Job, and the gospels.
So I still think there is a point to be made about how we, in modern times, conceptualize God, versus how God is described in some of the seminal biblical texts like Gen 1. I'm a theist through and through but I'll push back as hard as anyone, not for folks to 'prove' their God exists, but to justify some of the commonly presumed attributes of God, like omnipotence which literally shows up nowhere in Genesis. (English translations may refer to 'God Almighty' but at the same time admit this is not accurate, and the source word, El Shaddai, is highly controversial in its meaning.)
The implications for a discussion such as this are huge.
Sure. Have faith in the writers. But I would say it is more a matter of everyone doing their homework. None of this frees us of the responsibility of critical thought, and doing our best to tap into the deeper threads being laid out across biblical texts. And evaluating if those hold any water and warrant our belief or whatever you want to call it.nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:11 am After all, those people were imperfect as the rest of you and capable of mistakes (honest or otherwise) and agendas. Seems christians need to have more faith in these people than any deity, but that's a topic for another thread I suspect.
Well, imagine you now have a world filled with all kinds of life as Gen 1 depicts. It's going to get a bit unruly, right? Some plant species (what we classify as weeds for example) may start to strangle out others. Some animal species may become invasive in an area to the detriment of others. So there is real work involved in ruling over it all to ensure that a balance and peace takes hold. Where lions can lay down with lambs, so to speak, and different kinds of life can simply be, in relative harmony.nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:11 am You mention subduing life. What do you mean, exactly? And by whose plan?
There is also an element to 'subdual' of bringing under our control (which I say loosely). Like taming a wild creature so that it answers our call. But not just animal life but all the elements of creation. Things like the earth and the sea as well. (Hence Moses' ability to part the sea: it answers his call just like my dog answers mine.)
There are some beautiful texts in the bible on this. Like God's speeches to Job, and how God subdues Leviathan in Job 41.
And this is God's plan. God is the one who says to us in Gen 1 to fill the earth and subdue it. That is our overarching mandate and goal, and what we should evaluate all action against. (Anything contrary to this, I would argue, is evil.)