Stealing a faith

Debate and discussion on racism and related issues

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Athetotheist
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Stealing a faith

Post #1

Post by Athetotheist »

https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... sm/543864/

If this happens to your religion, can you afford to ignore it?

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Re: Stealing a faith

Post #11

Post by PolytheistWitch »

[Replying to Tcg in post #9]

When I said you, I meant a general you as in people, not you personally. You should try to keep things as neutral as possible. Sorry you got personally offended.

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Re: Stealing a faith

Post #12

Post by Athetotheist »

Miles wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:53 am
Athetotheist wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 9:35 pm https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... sm/543864/

If this happens to your religion, can you afford to ignore it?
From your linked page:

"White supremacists are coopting Norse heathen symbols. Should the heathens ignore them? Protest them? Create a new theology?"

So, why can't they share 'their" Norse heathen symbols? Unless they're copyrighted they're up for grabs, and by anyone.

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They're under no obligation to "share" their Norse Heathen symbols with anyone who corrupts those symbols' meaning.

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Miles
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Re: Stealing a faith

Post #13

Post by Miles »

Athetotheist wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 6:21 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:53 am
Athetotheist wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 9:35 pm https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... sm/543864/

If this happens to your religion, can you afford to ignore it?
From your linked page:

"White supremacists are coopting Norse heathen symbols. Should the heathens ignore them? Protest them? Create a new theology?"

So, why can't they share 'their" Norse heathen symbols? Unless they're copyrighted they're up for grabs, and by anyone.

.
They're under no obligation to "share" their Norse Heathen symbols with anyone who corrupts those symbols' meaning.
If they have no legal control over who uses them then it's a matter of free usage, and Hilmar Hilmarsson and his Ásatrúlites can go sulk in a corner or get on with their lives and ignore those they once chose to be upset with.

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Athetotheist
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Re: Stealing a faith

Post #14

Post by Athetotheist »

Miles wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:45 am
Athetotheist wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 6:21 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:53 am
Athetotheist wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 9:35 pm https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... sm/543864/

If this happens to your religion, can you afford to ignore it?
From your linked page:

"White supremacists are coopting Norse heathen symbols. Should the heathens ignore them? Protest them? Create a new theology?"

So, why can't they share 'their" Norse heathen symbols? Unless they're copyrighted they're up for grabs, and by anyone.

.
They're under no obligation to "share" their Norse Heathen symbols with anyone who corrupts those symbols' meaning.
If they have no legal control over who uses them then it's a matter of free usage, and Hilmar Hilmarsson and his Ásatrúlites can go sulk in a corner or get on with their lives and ignore those they once chose to be upset with.

.
.....while being discriminated against in employment, having their neighbors suspect them of being behind every act of violence.......

Yeah, you sure have thought this through......

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Miles
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Re: Stealing a faith

Post #15

Post by Miles »

Athetotheist wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 8:12 am
Miles wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:45 am
Athetotheist wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 6:21 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:53 am
Athetotheist wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 9:35 pm https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... sm/543864/

If this happens to your religion, can you afford to ignore it?
From your linked page:

"White supremacists are coopting Norse heathen symbols. Should the heathens ignore them? Protest them? Create a new theology?"

So, why can't they share 'their" Norse heathen symbols? Unless they're copyrighted they're up for grabs, and by anyone.

.
They're under no obligation to "share" their Norse Heathen symbols with anyone who corrupts those symbols' meaning.
If they have no legal control over who uses them then it's a matter of free usage, and Hilmar Hilmarsson and his Ásatrúlites can go sulk in a corner or get on with their lives and ignore those they once chose to be upset with.

.
.....while being discriminated against in employment, having their neighbors suspect them of being behind every act of violence.......

Yeah, you sure have thought this through......
Thought it through enough not to feel it's anyone's civil responsibility to control the possible actions and suspected behavior of other adults. Unless the use of a religion's symbols can be unequivocally shown to be responsible for employment discrimination or acts of violence, mere suspicion just ain't enough to put free speech into question. Sorry the skin of Hilmar Hilmarsson and his Ásatrúlites is so thin they can't sleep at night, but that's their problem and not that of anyone who chooses to use the same symbology as they do. As I see their problem, it comes down to some snowflake in school complaining that someone else is wearing the same dress as they do. :wail:


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Re: Stealing a faith

Post #16

Post by PolytheistWitch »

The problem isn't so much that they're using the symbols because the KKK burns crosses in front yards and no one would ever tell Christian don't wear a cross. The problem is people don't bother to educate themselves, the media says look racist wear Thor's hammers. I have a Thor's hammer in my front yard with the rune for Thor on it. Instead of assuming that I'm a Heathen that worships a certain group of gods, they assume I'm a white racist. Even though that symbol has nothing to do with racism in and of itself. Compound that with oh it doesn't look like a Marvel Thor's hammer now I've got to explain that. It has to do with people being lazy, people making assumptions and those assumptions come from them trusting the media to be honest and how it presents things.

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Re: Stealing a faith

Post #17

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to Miles in post #15
Unless the use of a religion's symbols can be unequivocally shown to be responsible for employment discrimination or acts of violence, mere suspicion just ain't enough to put free speech into question.
Mere suspicion is enough to lead to grievous harm to innocent people, and "free speech" just ain't enough of an excuse for that.
As I see their problem, it comes down to some snowflake in school complaining that someone else is wearing the same dress as they do. :wail:
You seriously regard the appropriation of religious symbols by violent hate groups as no more serious than a teenage fashion rivalry?

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Re: Stealing a faith

Post #18

Post by Miles »

Athetotheist wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:36 pm [Replying to Miles in post #15
As I see their problem, it comes down to some snowflake in school complaining that someone else is wearing the same dress as they do. :wail:
You seriously regard the appropriation of religious symbols by violent hate groups as no more serious than a teenage fashion rivalry?
Your silly hyperbole aside, hate is not against the law, nor is the appropriation of religious symbols. Reading a bit about Asatru, I see it, itself, appropriated the beliefs, practices, and symbology of the vikings, and was only re-recognized as a religion by the "state" in 1973.

Moreover, "Ásatrúarfélagið, the Pagan Association, was formally founded in the spring of 1992. The first blót (the rituals of Ásatrú are called blót) was held on Jónsmessa, Midsummer Night. The state granted the association formal recognition as a religious organization on May 16 1973. The organization of Ásatrúarfélagið is based on the historic organization of Ásatrú during the Viking age"
source.

While perhaps an interesting recreation of a dead religion, as such it doesn't garner any special rights. If it doesn't like others, haters or lovers, using its heathen symbology, tough . . . . . In the USA at least, it's one of those freedoms we've come to enjoy and cherish.

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Re: Stealing a faith

Post #19

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to Miles in post #18

hate is not against the law
Inciting violence is against the law, and so is defamation.
In the USA at least, it's one of those freedoms we've come to enjoy and cherish.
Freedom isn't cherished unless we cherish the same freedoms for others which we cherish for ourselves, and that includes the freedom from fear of attack. My "silly hyperbole" isn't anywhere near as silly as your wardrobe analogy.

Freedoms always come with responsibilities, and those responsibilities impose limits on those freedoms. We never have a right to make others suffer the consequences of our "freedom".

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Re: Stealing a faith

Post #20

Post by PolytheistWitch »

[Replying to Miles in post #18]
Reading a bit about Asatru, I see it, itself, appropriated the beliefs, practices, and symbology of the vikings, and was only re-recognized as a religion by the "state" in 1973
Religion and religious practices wiped out by the Catholic Church doesn't mean when someone starts to do them their appropriation. It's called recreation. Unfortunately anybody can do that and they can throw into it anything they want to including deciding that because the area of the world those gods were originally worshiped him was white the gods are white which is complete BS.

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