Is Prayer Measurable?

[POI]

Seems as though Christians make countless claims, that God answers prayer(s). Well, does He? If so, when exactly? Are these 'answered prayers' measurable in any tangible and/or objective kind of way? Please do not answer yet... Below, I will place forth an example....

On earth, we have many who are amputees, and/or have downs syndrome, and/or have cerebral palsy. I would imagine countless prayer requests have also been made on their behalf? If so, has God ever answered? Has God ever answered the call to reverse/remove such unwanted afflictions? If so, care to share?

To me, seems as though God ignores the call to such prayer requests, (to remove such conditions). Would you Christians agree?

[TRANSPONDER]

I hate to stick my neck out or look provocative, but the deafening silence is only too familiar. While there are some tough and effective debaters for Theism around here, too often it is excuses and evasions, effectively appealing to Faith and trying to shift the discussion to something where they can preach or witness, or there is the familiar dead silence.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #1]


God answers whose prayers he chooses to answer. Faith seems to play a big role in whose prayers he answers.

Matt 13:58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

Would a divine intervention in the physical world be measurable? Sure, there would be some change in the physical world, obviously. Could you trace it back to being divine? Maybe not.

There are cases where people are given a death sentence because what they have is not curable. They pray and they get better, although, they should have died. We can claim this is just the body healing itself. It is also possible, something answered their prayer, something that knows how to get rid of the disease.

We see the change. The person was very ill and then they got better.

Missing limbs. No one ever seems to grow them back. Jesus did not do miracles to some because they lacked faith. Maybe no one has had the faith that their limbs could grow back in any recent time. I have only been able to find one case.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_ ... 20earlier.

[POI]

God answers whose prayers he chooses to answer. Faith seems to play a big role in whose prayers he answers.

If 'faith' is the deciding factor, then this would mean that no one has enough faith; who is praying for amputees, cerebral palsy, and downs syndrome. Convenient.

Matt 13:58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

Except that we have an uncountable number of claimed answered prayers, as long as they exclude amputees, cerebral palsy, and downs.

Would a divine intervention in the physical world be measurable? Sure, there would be some change in the physical world, obviously. Could you trace it back to being divine? Maybe not.

Being that the (3) listed conditions cannot be reversed by humans, this incongruency would be more apt to think some other 'forces' are at work.

There are cases where people are given a death sentence because what they have is not curable. They pray and they get better, although, they should have died. We can claim this is just the body healing itself. It is also possible, something answered their prayer, something that knows how to get rid of the disease.

We've already been over this. Please refer to the above.

We see the change. The person was very ill and then they got better.

Yea, I work in a hospital. I see this all the time. Many don't pray. And the ones that do, pray to completely differing agencies.

Missing limbs. No one ever seems to grow them back. Jesus did not do miracles to some because they lacked faith. Maybe no one has had the faith that their limbs could grow back in any recent time. I have only been able to find one case.

Convenient answer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_ ... 20earlier.

Yea, we've been over this link already, many moons ago.... This is why I said measurable. A claim from the 1600's is not

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #43]

Yea, I work in a hospital. I see this all the time. Many don't pray. And the ones that do, pray to completely differing agencies.

Please give an argument for how this somehow means God is not answering ALL their prayers. For those that do not pray, well, firstly, you cannot know they did not pray. We often pray in our mind and don't share it with people working in the hospital. When I was in the hospital, no one knew I was praying in my mind.

And suppose some are healed though they did not pray. Others might have prayed on their behalf.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #43]

Yea, I work in a hospital. I see this all the time. Many don't pray. And the ones that do, pray to completely differing agencies.

Please give an argument for how this somehow means God is not answering ALL their prayers. For those that do not pray, well, firstly, you cannot know they did not pray. We often pray in our mind and don't share it with people working in the hospital. When I was in the hospital, no one knew I was praying in my mind.

And suppose some are healed though they did not pray. Others might have prayed on their behalf.

Millions, if not billions, of prayer requests have and will happen. All to differing agencies. Good stuff happens, bad stuff happens, and people like to connect the dots, when there really isn't any. Stuff just happens. And it's called accepting the hits, and ignoring the misses.

But isn't it interesting that the constant, in all of this, is that amputees, cerebral palsy, and downs syndrome ain't getting addressed. So far, your response has been quite unsatisifactory. Maybe you can place forth a better one?

[brunumb]

God answers whose prayers he chooses to answer. Faith seems to play a big role in whose prayers he answers.

Faith plays an even greater role in the making of such unsupported claims. Take God out of the picture and everything looks the same. Some prayers appear to be answered and others not.

[AquinasForGod]

God answers whose prayers he chooses to answer. Faith seems to play a big role in whose prayers he answers.

Faith plays an even greater role in the making of such unsupported claims. Take God out of the picture and everything looks the same. Some prayers appear to be answered and others not.

If there is no God, no prayer should appear to be answered.

[POI]

If there is no God, no prayer should appear to be answered.

Funny you should say that. When prayer is studied, under any type of formal investigation, prayers do not appear to be answered. I think I've sent this to you before, but just in case others were not aware:

(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567):

Abstract

BACKGROUND:
Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery.

METHODS:
Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality.

RESULTS:
In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups.

CONCLUSIONS:
Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #48]

First question: Who did the praying?

How many of the patients believed in God and had faith that God answers prayers?

Remember Jesus said he did not heal many because they lacked faith. He wants our faith.

And there is another concern. If such a study were conducted and absolutely showed that prayer works, then that would go against divine hiddenness.


And finally, from the same website, prayer has had benefits, no effect, and even ill effects. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2802370/

Here is one that had positive effects, and greatly so.

Cha et al.[32] found that the women who had been prayed for had nearly twice as high a pregnancy rate as those who had not been prayed for (50 vs. 26%; P <0.005). Furthermore, the women who had been prayed for showed a higher implantation rate than those who had not been prayed for (16.3 vs. 8%; P <0.001). Finally, the benefits of prayer were independent of clinical or laboratory providers and clinical variables. Thus, this study showed that distant prayer facilitates implantation and pregnancy.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #48]

First question: Who did the praying?

How many of the patients believed in God and had faith that God answers prayers?

Remember Jesus said he did not heal many because they lacked faith. He wants our faith.

And there is another concern. If such a study were conducted and absolutely showed that prayer works, then that would go against divine hiddenness.


And finally, from the same website, prayer has had benefits, no effect, and even ill effects. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2802370/

Here is one that had positive effects, and greatly so.

Cha et al.[32] found that the women who had been prayed for had nearly twice as high a pregnancy rate as those who had not been prayed for (50 vs. 26%; P <0.005). Furthermore, the women who had been prayed for showed a higher implantation rate than those who had not been prayed for (16.3 vs. 8%; P <0.001). Finally, the benefits of prayer were independent of clinical or laboratory providers and clinical variables. Thus, this study showed that distant prayer facilitates implantation and pregnancy.

Oh, your position is clear. You have the 'hiddenness' excuse He does NOT want to reveal Himself too much. This must be why he avoids "answered prayers", which would possibly demonstrate actual answered prayer. Hence, we can enjoy the countless claims, to answered prayer, which could just as easily not be actual "answered prayer."