One can prove there is no god as described in the Bible from reason alone.
God is, by definition according to Christian theology, perfect, all knowing and all powerful. This god has no needs or desires. 'He' is complete unto himself. He is perfect.
Since he is already perfect any change is a change from perfection.
Therefore God not only had no desire to create 'man,' no need to create man, the creation of any fundamental change to the universe, to existence itself, would constitute a change from perfection. Any change from an absolutely perfect state must be a change from perfection to a lesser state, therefore God did not create man since to do so would imply he was not previously perfect.
That homo sapiens exists is therefore proof there was no preexisting and perfect God.
Ontological Proof There is No God
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Ontological Proof There is No God
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God
Post #31Neither I nor the cat disagree with you, but being relevant isn't the same as being independent, much less the same as being God.2ndRateMind wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:32 pmSorry, but the subjective is an important feature of human lives. It may not be empirical, but that does not diminish it's relevance.
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God
Post #32Who's claiming to be God? Me, who willingly accepts fealty to the good, as exemplified by Him, or you and your independent cat?Difflugia wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:35 pmNeither I nor the cat disagree with you, but being relevant isn't the same as being independent, much less the same as being God.2ndRateMind wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:32 pmSorry, but the subjective is an important feature of human lives. It may not be empirical, but that does not diminish it's relevance.
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God
Post #33This is assuming that there is only one way to be perfect. It could be that there are many ways to be perfect. There are, after all, many ways to be triangular, yet if we have a triangle and change the length of its sides, we don't say it is less triangular.Diogenes wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:46 pm One can prove there is no god as described in the Bible from reason alone.
God is, by definition according to Christian theology, perfect, all knowing and all powerful. This god has no needs or desires. 'He' is complete unto himself. He is perfect.
Since he is already perfect any change is a change from perfection.
Therefore God not only had no desire to create 'man,' no need to create man, the creation of any fundamental change to the universe, to existence itself, would constitute a change from perfection. Any change from an absolutely perfect state must be a change from perfection to a lesser state, therefore God did not create man since to do so would imply he was not previously perfect.
That homo sapiens exists is therefore proof there was no preexisting and perfect God.
This line of reasoning rests on the assumption that there is only one way to be perfect. This must be shown if we are to accept this reasoning.
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God
Post #34There may be only one perfect orange, one perfect apple... and there is only one perfect God. This is a problem the medieval scholastics created. "God" is absolute perfection. Any deviation represents something other than perfection.Kylie wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 9:34 pm This is assuming that there is only one way to be perfect. It could be that there are many ways to be perfect. There are, after all, many ways to be triangular, yet if we have a triangle and change the length of its sides, we don't say it is less triangular.
This line of reasoning rests on the assumption that there is only one way to be perfect. This must be shown if we are to accept this reasoning.
This is why God creating the Earth and its multitude of imperfect beings would mean God was either not perfect before such creation, or his creation made him imperfect. 'God,' BTW, agrees:
'And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”'
Genesis 6:6-7
I am not contending that God is perfect or that he even exists. He does not. That is the point of this topic. If this so called 'God' is perfect, then 'He' does not exist. If 'He' did, he would do no more.
Having reached perfection 'He' would stop. This is the point, this notion of a 'perfect God' is absurd, just as is the notion of a perfect triangle. A perfect triangle only exists as a construct, an idea. A perfect triangle does not exist except as a geometric ideal.
This notion of a 'perfect god' does not exist except as a theological idea.
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God
Post #35You appear to be missing my point.Diogenes wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:02 pm There may be only one perfect orange, one perfect apple... and there is only one perfect God. This is a problem the medieval scholastics created. "God" is absolute perfection. Any deviation represents something other than perfection.
This is why God creating the Earth and its multitude of imperfect beings would mean God was either not perfect before such creation, or his creation made him imperfect. 'God,' BTW, agrees:
'And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”'
Genesis 6:6-7
I am not contending that God is perfect or that he even exists. He does not. That is the point of this topic. If this so called 'God' is perfect, then 'He' does not exist. If 'He' did, he would do no more.
Having reached perfection 'He' would stop. This is the point, this notion of a 'perfect God' is absurd, just as is the notion of a perfect triangle. A perfect triangle only exists as a construct, an idea. A perfect triangle does not exist except as a geometric ideal.
This notion of a 'perfect god' does not exist except as a theological idea.
There are many ways for a triangle to be perfectly triangular. Whey can't we also say there are many ways for God to be perfectly Godly?
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God
Post #36Just for the sake of pernicketyness, here, simply stated, is St Anselm's ontological argument: Consider a being greater than which nothing can be conceived. Since such a being is greater if it exists than if it doesn't, it must exist.Kylie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:25 amYou appear to be missing my point.Diogenes wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:02 pm There may be only one perfect orange, one perfect apple... and there is only one perfect God. This is a problem the medieval scholastics created. "God" is absolute perfection. Any deviation represents something other than perfection.
This is why God creating the Earth and its multitude of imperfect beings would mean God was either not perfect before such creation, or his creation made him imperfect. 'God,' BTW, agrees:
'And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”'
Genesis 6:6-7
I am not contending that God is perfect or that he even exists. He does not. That is the point of this topic. If this so called 'God' is perfect, then 'He' does not exist. If 'He' did, he would do no more.
Having reached perfection 'He' would stop. This is the point, this notion of a 'perfect God' is absurd, just as is the notion of a perfect triangle. A perfect triangle only exists as a construct, an idea. A perfect triangle does not exist except as a geometric ideal.
This notion of a 'perfect god' does not exist except as a theological idea.
There are many ways for a triangle to be perfectly triangular. Whey can't we also say there are many ways for God to be perfectly Godly?
Best wishes, 2RM.
Last edited by 2ndRateMind on Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God
Post #37And your point would be?...
Best wishes, 2RM.
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God
Post #38For the purposes of debate, I ought to say I am not entirely persuaded by St Anselm. He seems to me to confuse quality (how great a thing is) with quantity (how many instances of it occur in the universe). It is entirely possible to conceive of the greatest possible unicorn, but that does not make unicorns exist.2ndRateMind wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:23 amJust for the sake of pernicketyness, here, simply stated, is St Anselm's ontological argument: Consider a being greater than which nothing can be conceived. Since such a being is greater if it exists than if it doesn't, it must exist.Kylie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:25 amYou appear to be missing my point.Diogenes wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:02 pm There may be only one perfect orange, one perfect apple... and there is only one perfect God. This is a problem the medieval scholastics created. "God" is absolute perfection. Any deviation represents something other than perfection.
This is why God creating the Earth and its multitude of imperfect beings would mean God was either not perfect before such creation, or his creation made him imperfect. 'God,' BTW, agrees:
'And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”'
Genesis 6:6-7
I am not contending that God is perfect or that he even exists. He does not. That is the point of this topic. If this so called 'God' is perfect, then 'He' does not exist. If 'He' did, he would do no more.
Having reached perfection 'He' would stop. This is the point, this notion of a 'perfect God' is absurd, just as is the notion of a perfect triangle. A perfect triangle only exists as a construct, an idea. A perfect triangle does not exist except as a geometric ideal.
This notion of a 'perfect god' does not exist except as a theological idea.
There are many ways for a triangle to be perfectly triangular. Whey can't we also say there are many ways for God to be perfectly Godly?
Best wishes, 2RM.
So far as I understand the status quo, God hides Himself from those who do not love Him, and do not want a relationship with Him, and reveals Himself to those that do love Him, and do want that relationship. Accordingly, my suspicion is that to attempt to 'prove' or 'disprove' God are projects doomed to faliure.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Last edited by 2ndRateMind on Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God
Post #39Of course, something can be different and still be equally as great. Just as a triangle can be different and still be equally triangular.2ndRateMind wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:23 amJust for the sake of pernicketyness, here, simply stated, is St Anselm's ontological argument: Consider a being greater than which nothing can be conceived. Since such a being is greater if it exists than if it doesn't, it must exist.Kylie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:25 amYou appear to be missing my point.Diogenes wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:02 pm There may be only one perfect orange, one perfect apple... and there is only one perfect God. This is a problem the medieval scholastics created. "God" is absolute perfection. Any deviation represents something other than perfection.
This is why God creating the Earth and its multitude of imperfect beings would mean God was either not perfect before such creation, or his creation made him imperfect. 'God,' BTW, agrees:
'And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”'
Genesis 6:6-7
I am not contending that God is perfect or that he even exists. He does not. That is the point of this topic. If this so called 'God' is perfect, then 'He' does not exist. If 'He' did, he would do no more.
Having reached perfection 'He' would stop. This is the point, this notion of a 'perfect God' is absurd, just as is the notion of a perfect triangle. A perfect triangle only exists as a construct, an idea. A perfect triangle does not exist except as a geometric ideal.
This notion of a 'perfect god' does not exist except as a theological idea.
There are many ways for a triangle to be perfectly triangular. Whey can't we also say there are many ways for God to be perfectly Godly?
Best wishes, 2RM.
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God
Post #40I agree, I am also not persuaded by this argument. I'm reminded of the "perfect Island" response to this argument. One could also use this argument to prove the existence of the Starship Enterprise...2ndRateMind wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:58 pmFor the purposes of debate, I ought to say I am not entirely persuaded by St Anselm. He seems to me to confuse quality (how great a thing is) with quantity (how many instances of it occur in the universe). It is entirely possible to conceive of the the greatest possible unicorn, but that does not make unicorns exist.2ndRateMind wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:23 amJust for the sake of pernicketyness, here, simply stated, is St Anselm's ontological argument: Consider a being greater than which nothing can be conceived. Since such a being is greater if it exists than if it doesn't, it must exist.Kylie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:25 amYou appear to be missing my point.Diogenes wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:02 pm There may be only one perfect orange, one perfect apple... and there is only one perfect God. This is a problem the medieval scholastics created. "God" is absolute perfection. Any deviation represents something other than perfection.
This is why God creating the Earth and its multitude of imperfect beings would mean God was either not perfect before such creation, or his creation made him imperfect. 'God,' BTW, agrees:
'And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”'
Genesis 6:6-7
I am not contending that God is perfect or that he even exists. He does not. That is the point of this topic. If this so called 'God' is perfect, then 'He' does not exist. If 'He' did, he would do no more.
Having reached perfection 'He' would stop. This is the point, this notion of a 'perfect God' is absurd, just as is the notion of a perfect triangle. A perfect triangle only exists as a construct, an idea. A perfect triangle does not exist except as a geometric ideal.
This notion of a 'perfect god' does not exist except as a theological idea.
There are many ways for a triangle to be perfectly triangular. Whey can't we also say there are many ways for God to be perfectly Godly?
Best wishes, 2RM.
So far as I understand the status quo, God hides Himself from those who do not love Him, and do not want a relationship with Him, and reveals Himself to those that do love Him, and do want that relationship. Accordingly, my suspicion is that to attempt to 'prove' or 'disprove' God are projects doomed to faliure.
Best wishes, 2RM.