Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?
For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.
Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
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Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #1In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #2I find it odd that no Christian wants to chime in here? How does a Christian get to Heaven?
- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by faith/belief + works
- Other
- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by faith/belief + works
- Other
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #3[Replying to POI in post #1]
Salvation (which includes getting to heaven, but is more than that) comes by grace through faith. Faith without works is dead (that is, not genuine faith), but it is the grace that comes through faith that brings salvation.
Salvation (which includes getting to heaven, but is more than that) comes by grace through faith. Faith without works is dead (that is, not genuine faith), but it is the grace that comes through faith that brings salvation.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #4I'm afraid I am not following... Your answer seems somewhat cryptic. Are you saying salvation requires all three elements (grace + faith/belief + works)? I need a starting point before I can truly engage.bjs1 wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:51 pm [Replying to POI in post #1]
Salvation (which includes getting to heaven, but is more than that) comes by grace through faith. Faith without works is dead (that is, not genuine faith), but it is the grace that comes through faith that brings salvation.
EDIT: Are you saying....
God requires faith, and true faith leads to good works? And maybe the more true faith you possess, the more it will be demonstrated through your works?
Last edited by POI on Tue May 10, 2022 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #5It is unresolved because gospel John disagrees with the synoptics and none of them agree with Paul. One would think there'd be agreement if all these were created under the influence of a god of some kind, unless of course it intends to create confusion. If that is the goal, its done a great job.POI wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 1:20 pm Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?
For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.
Tcg
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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #6I would agree that the authors of the Bible are the purveyors of confusion. Believer or not, if one objectively reads the NT, one could make a case for conflicting paths to salvation. I reckon this is why Christians have avoided this thread like the plague, thus far...?Tcg wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 6:33 pmIt is unresolved because gospel John disagrees with the synoptics and none of them agree with Paul. One would think there'd be agreement if all these were created under the influence of a god of some kind, unless of course it intends to create confusion. If that is the goal, its done a great job.POI wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 1:20 pm Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?
For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.
Tcg
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #7I would disagree that the authors of the Bible are not the purveyors of confusion.
Not if one one lets the bible translate itself. One might not necessarily understand everything in scripture but not understanding doesn't equates to confusion. Most atheists I have met cannot explain the origins of the universe but that doesnt mean they live in "confusion". Unless one attempts to impose one's misconceptions where they do not belong, therenis no reason for scripture to be confusing.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #8Perhaps so. There are salient teachings which must count, unless the believer rejects one or other of them. For example James says that Faith without works is valueless. But one may argue that Paul (Faith is all, works mean nothing} superseded James. But Paul after preaching Faith rather than Law (and Faith specifically in Jesus as risen Messiah) he goes on to tell his Corninthians that works matter, after all If one sins, then one risks losing Grace, and thus loses salvation.
Whatever other confusion we may get from the Bible, the salient teachings must matter. It seems clear that good works will gain nothing, since if that was what mattered, non Christians who did good works would have more chance of being saved than Christians who had to confess sins regularly.
Faith is one's requirement for salvation and Right Belief is the Faith. Not belief in God, as otherwise Jews could be saved, not belief in Jesus as a moral teacher (sorry, Jefferson) but belief in a tenet of Christianity. Though whether it's Jesus is Messiah (Actual son of God), died for our sins (Paul says that's how he made the loophole in Sin - death but that's NOT what we must believe) or that he resurrected (Paul as I recall argued for resurrection or Faith was in vain, but that is not what the Faith should be about) may not be clear to believers.
After all, Some Believe either through their own Interpretation, or what they are taught, that belief in the Virgin birth, the inerrancy of the Bible, not giving blood even to save life, or genesis -literalism is a requirement. Some shibbolleth or Icon that they may pin their ticket to heaven on. But I'd say that anyone who reads the Gospels, Paul and Acts (The OT we know is superseded) must know that it is Belief in Jesus (some aspect or other) and not works that is what matters, Except that sinning can void the ticket through the heavenly turnstile.
Whatever other confusion we may get from the Bible, the salient teachings must matter. It seems clear that good works will gain nothing, since if that was what mattered, non Christians who did good works would have more chance of being saved than Christians who had to confess sins regularly.
Faith is one's requirement for salvation and Right Belief is the Faith. Not belief in God, as otherwise Jews could be saved, not belief in Jesus as a moral teacher (sorry, Jefferson) but belief in a tenet of Christianity. Though whether it's Jesus is Messiah (Actual son of God), died for our sins (Paul says that's how he made the loophole in Sin - death but that's NOT what we must believe) or that he resurrected (Paul as I recall argued for resurrection or Faith was in vain, but that is not what the Faith should be about) may not be clear to believers.
After all, Some Believe either through their own Interpretation, or what they are taught, that belief in the Virgin birth, the inerrancy of the Bible, not giving blood even to save life, or genesis -literalism is a requirement. Some shibbolleth or Icon that they may pin their ticket to heaven on. But I'd say that anyone who reads the Gospels, Paul and Acts (The OT we know is superseded) must know that it is Belief in Jesus (some aspect or other) and not works that is what matters, Except that sinning can void the ticket through the heavenly turnstile.
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #9I'll start by posing the same question to you, for which I presented to the Christian audience in general:JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 8:00 amI would disagree that the authors of the Bible are not the purveyors of confusion.
Not if one one lets the bible translate itself. One might not necessarily understand everything in scripture but not understanding doesn't equates to confusion. Most atheists I have met cannot explain the origins of the universe but that doesnt mean they live in "confusion". Unless one attempts to impose one's misconceptions where they do not belong, therenis no reason for scripture to be confusing.
How does a Christian get to Heaven?
- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by faith/belief + works
- Other
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #10POI wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 10:40 amI'll start by posing the same question to you, for which I presented to the Christian audience in general:JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 8:00 amI would disagree that the authors of the Bible are not the purveyors of confusion.
Not if one one lets the bible translate itself. One might not necessarily understand everything in scripture but not understanding doesn't equates to confusion. Most atheists I have met cannot explain the origins of the universe but that doesnt mean they live in "confusion". Unless one attempts to impose one's misconceptions where they do not belong, therenis no reason for scripture to be confusing.
How does a Christian get to Heaven?
- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by faith/belief + works
- Other
Why ? How would my answers prove your point or disprove my own?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8