Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[kjw47]

[Replying to kjw47 in post #218]

So many studies have been conducted on unfulfilled prophecies from religions large and small that they were compiled into a fascinating book from 2000, Expecting Armageddon.

Expecting Armageddon: Essential Readings in Failed Prophecy
https://tinyurl.com/mwuye3wy

Men have failed by making errors. But the bible will not fail in its prophecies. When religions are done away with by the UN, you will know the prophecies are true, but then that is the locking of the door, the tribulation begins which leads to armageddon. The bible says-God will put it into their hearts to do it. It cannot be stopped.

[kjw47]

Please recall, I'm asking how one is saved. I'm asking theists what is God's criteria. You do not seem to be able to do that yet? But I continue to remain optimistic. Again, I have finally, after all these decades, found the ONE person to give me truth. So please, give us all, the right answer (i.e.):

A) Unconditional grace (all are saved)
B) Grace by belief/faith
C) Grace through your works
D) Both B and C
E) No one is worthy
F) Other

So far, at minimum, you've basically touched on the possibility of answers A) through D).?.?.?

By studying his written word one learns many facts of what God dislikes and what he accepts.

That's great. If you happen to perform one of His dislikes, does this place you immediately on the naughty list? And to the contrary, if you happen to do something He likes, are you then placed back on the saved list?

I can't imagine you will always please or disappoint Him. Same goes for anyone you love. So what IS His threshold between salvation/condemnation? What is the fine line, if you are indeed dearly perpetually trying to appease Him?

The answers come to those, but are hard to explain.

It's "hard to explain" because the Bible does not provide a clear answer. You can earnestly surmise conflicting conclusions. Like I told "Tam" a while back... God is very clear, when He wants to be. With salvation, not-so-much.

Jesus said this--John 17:3( a prayer to his Father)--This means eternal life, their knowing you(Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and the one whom you sent forth Christ Jesus.---The only way one can know them both is by studying the bible-it never stops. John 17:6=YHWH(Jehovah) John 17:26= YHWH(Jehovah) = the Father.

Jesus says quite a lot of things. But my question still remains, how is one saved? Here, maybe this 7 minute video will help. I've provided it before, but feel it is quite fitting here:

i have no need to watch that. I showed you what Jesus taught. Every saved one listened to everything Jesus taught and applied it so that are obeying him.

It would probably do you good to watch that but like Gollum, you can't even try, yet. It absolutely nails how today what Jesus says (it says) in the gospels is cherry =picked and interpreted to suit current thought and of course various denominations can't agree on the interpretations and docyrines.

Every saved one listened to everything Jesus taught and applied it so that are obeying him.

Who exactly are all these saved ones and how do we know that you are not just making up this claim?

There is enough proof that the bible is Gods written word.

There is no valid evidence (never mind Proof) that the Bible is the Word of anyone other than men, and men who were none too reliable, at that.

Rather there is a lot of good evidence and I'd say 'proof' that the Bible was written by men and who did not know what was true and didn't care much, so long as the audience bought it.

Many prophecys have already come true. Most of Revelation has been watched passing before the worlds eyes for well over 100 years. Only those in darkness cannot see.

As long as your expectations and translations are very low and very loose.

We know 100% its getting very close. This world is not going to improve, it will continue to get worse.

[POI]

Please recall, I'm asking how one is saved. I'm asking theists what is God's criteria. You do not seem to be able to do that yet? But I continue to remain optimistic. Again, I have finally, after all these decades, found the ONE person to give me truth. So please, give us all, the right answer (i.e.):

A) Unconditional grace (all are saved)
B) Grace by belief/faith
C) Grace through your works
D) Both B and C
E) No one is worthy
F) Other

So far, at minimum, you've basically touched on the possibility of answers A) through D).?.?.?

By studying his written word one learns many facts of what God dislikes and what he accepts.

That's great. If you happen to perform one of His dislikes, does this place you immediately on the naughty list? And to the contrary, if you happen to do something He likes, are you then placed back on the saved list?

I can't imagine you will always please or disappoint Him. Same goes for anyone you love. So what IS His threshold between salvation/condemnation? What is the fine line, if you are indeed dearly perpetually trying to appease Him?

The answers come to those, but are hard to explain.

It's "hard to explain" because the Bible does not provide a clear answer. You can earnestly surmise conflicting conclusions. Like I told "Tam" a while back... God is very clear, when He wants to be. With salvation, not-so-much.

Jesus said this--John 17:3( a prayer to his Father)--This means eternal life, their knowing you(Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and the one whom you sent forth Christ Jesus.---The only way one can know them both is by studying the bible-it never stops. John 17:6=YHWH(Jehovah) John 17:26= YHWH(Jehovah) = the Father.

Jesus says quite a lot of things. But my question still remains, how is one saved? Here, maybe this 7 minute video will help. I've provided it before, but feel it is quite fitting here:

i have no need to watch that. I showed you what Jesus taught. Every saved one listened to everything Jesus taught and applied it so that are obeying him.

It would probably do you good to watch that but like Gollum, you can't even try, yet. It absolutely nails how today what Jesus says (it says) in the gospels is cherry =picked and interpreted to suit current thought and of course various denominations can't agree on the interpretations and docyrines.

Every saved one listened to everything Jesus taught and applied it so that are obeying him.

Who exactly are all these saved ones and how do we know that you are not just making up this claim?

There is enough proof that the bible is Gods written word.

There is no valid evidence (never mind Proof) that the Bible is the Word of anyone other than men, and men who were none too reliable, at that.

Rather there is a lot of good evidence and I'd say 'proof' that the Bible was written by men and who did not know what was true and didn't care much, so long as the audience bought it.

Many prophecys have already come true. Most of Revelation has been watched passing before the worlds eyes for well over 100 years. Only those in darkness cannot see.

As long as your expectations and translations are very low and very loose.

We know 100% its getting very close. This world is not going to improve, it will continue to get worse.

Mr. Russell thought it was getting "really close" It's funny how all the dooms-day-spreaders seem to think such events are going to unfold in their life-time.

So to recap, you CANNOT locate the Verse(s) for which I asked? You know, the ones which tell the reader the following:

"If you possess all your facilities, the way to achieve salvation is by truly believing, and performing works. But if you are unable, it's okay, I'll judge you based upon your capabilities. And if you were never born, I'll give you a free pass"

And/or, "if you possess all your facilities, and you truly love me more than yourself, this will be demonstrated by performing XYZ for this long. And if you do not, then you do not really love me more than yourself." ---- "Oh, and if you live a full life, this would mean your works would equal XYZ, for this long each day. Oh, and here is the official order of importance, regarding the works hierarchy (this>that>other>etc....)

Because remember, just because you love someone more than you love yourself, in this situation, the person you love is still the one judging your love. You must demonstrate.

So what is God's standard, for Him to know you truly DO love Him more than yourself? I mean, do you give away 80% of your salary? other other other?.?.?

You know, something to that effect... If you cannot tell all of us specifically, how one is saved, then you are in the same boat as the rest of us?

[brunumb]

Men have failed by making errors. But the bible will not fail in its prophecies.

Of course it will and has done already. That's because men have failed by making errors and those are the men who wrote the Bible.

[kjw47]

Please recall, I'm asking how one is saved. I'm asking theists what is God's criteria. You do not seem to be able to do that yet? But I continue to remain optimistic. Again, I have finally, after all these decades, found the ONE person to give me truth. So please, give us all, the right answer (i.e.):

A) Unconditional grace (all are saved)
B) Grace by belief/faith
C) Grace through your works
D) Both B and C
E) No one is worthy
F) Other

So far, at minimum, you've basically touched on the possibility of answers A) through D).?.?.?

By studying his written word one learns many facts of what God dislikes and what he accepts.

That's great. If you happen to perform one of His dislikes, does this place you immediately on the naughty list? And to the contrary, if you happen to do something He likes, are you then placed back on the saved list?

I can't imagine you will always please or disappoint Him. Same goes for anyone you love. So what IS His threshold between salvation/condemnation? What is the fine line, if you are indeed dearly perpetually trying to appease Him?

The answers come to those, but are hard to explain.

It's "hard to explain" because the Bible does not provide a clear answer. You can earnestly surmise conflicting conclusions. Like I told "Tam" a while back... God is very clear, when He wants to be. With salvation, not-so-much.

Jesus said this--John 17:3( a prayer to his Father)--This means eternal life, their knowing you(Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and the one whom you sent forth Christ Jesus.---The only way one can know them both is by studying the bible-it never stops. John 17:6=YHWH(Jehovah) John 17:26= YHWH(Jehovah) = the Father.

Jesus says quite a lot of things. But my question still remains, how is one saved? Here, maybe this 7 minute video will help. I've provided it before, but feel it is quite fitting here:

i have no need to watch that. I showed you what Jesus taught. Every saved one listened to everything Jesus taught and applied it so that are obeying him.

It would probably do you good to watch that but like Gollum, you can't even try, yet. It absolutely nails how today what Jesus says (it says) in the gospels is cherry =picked and interpreted to suit current thought and of course various denominations can't agree on the interpretations and docyrines.

Every saved one listened to everything Jesus taught and applied it so that are obeying him.

Who exactly are all these saved ones and how do we know that you are not just making up this claim?

There is enough proof that the bible is Gods written word.

There is no valid evidence (never mind Proof) that the Bible is the Word of anyone other than men, and men who were none too reliable, at that.

Rather there is a lot of good evidence and I'd say 'proof' that the Bible was written by men and who did not know what was true and didn't care much, so long as the audience bought it.

Many prophecys have already come true. Most of Revelation has been watched passing before the worlds eyes for well over 100 years. Only those in darkness cannot see.

As long as your expectations and translations are very low and very loose.

We know 100% its getting very close. This world is not going to improve, it will continue to get worse.

Mr. Russell thought it was getting "really close" It's funny how all the dooms-day-spreaders seem to think such events are going to unfold in their life-time.

So to recap, you CANNOT locate the Verse(s) for which I asked? You know, the ones which tell the reader the following:

"If you possess all your facilities, the way to achieve salvation is by truly believing, and performing works. But if you are unable, it's okay, I'll judge you based upon your capabilities. And if you were never born, I'll give you a free pass"

And/or, "if you possess all your facilities, and you truly love me more than yourself, this will be demonstrated by performing XYZ for this long. And if you do not, then you do not really love me more than yourself." ---- "Oh, and if you live a full life, this would mean your works would equal XYZ, for this long each day. Oh, and here is the official order of importance, regarding the works hierarchy (this>that>other>etc....)

Because remember, just because you love someone more than you love yourself, in this situation, the person you love is still the one judging your love. You must demonstrate.

So what is God's standard, for Him to know you truly DO love Him more than yourself? I mean, do you give away 80% of your salary? other other other?.?.?

You know, something to that effect... If you cannot tell all of us specifically, how one is saved, then you are in the same boat as the rest of us?

Mr Russell confused the war in heaven for Armageddon. He was correct in 1879 when he said peace will be taken from the earth in 1914=rev 6--Since Jesus is pictured riding the white horse at Armageddon later in Rev, he thought that was the ride of the white horse at Rev 6--turns out it was the war in heaven. He still figured that prophecy out from Daniel that not one other on earth could, even though they had centuries of reading the bible before him. Not by accident. So we are over 100 years past rev 6 in revelation.

[brunumb]

Mr Russell confused the war in heaven for Armageddon.

War in heaven? Doesn't sound like a safe place to visit.

He was correct in 1879 when he said peace will be taken from the earth in 1914=rev 6--

But it wasn't taken from the earth, just a small portion of it. Then peace returned a few years later. What, no prophecy of that? How about an even bigger loss of peace in 1939? Where was that prophecy? Prophecy is total bunk.

Since Jesus is pictured riding the white horse at Armageddon later in Rev, he thought that was the ride of the white horse at Rev 6--turns out it was the war in heaven.

What? How does one mix up a war in heaven with an earthly Armageddon? Horses in heaven? Sounds like Mr Russell might have been filled with a not-so-holy spirit.

[kjw47]

Mr Russell confused the war in heaven for Armageddon.

War in heaven? Doesn't sound like a safe place to visit.

He was correct in 1879 when he said peace will be taken from the earth in 1914=rev 6--

But it wasn't taken from the earth, just a small portion of it. Then peace returned a few years later. What, no prophecy of that? How about an even bigger loss of peace in 1939? Where was that prophecy? Prophecy is total bunk.

Since Jesus is pictured riding the white horse at Armageddon later in Rev, he thought that was the ride of the white horse at Rev 6--turns out it was the war in heaven.

What? How does one mix up a war in heaven with an earthly Armageddon? Horses in heaven? Sounds like Mr Russell might have been filled with a not-so-holy spirit.

A world war is not a small war.--Rev 6 the ride of the white horse( righteous war)--Jesus is pictured on the white horse at Armageddon, He thought it was that scenario, but it was the war in heaven. Also righteous war.

[brunumb]

Mr Russell confused the war in heaven for Armageddon.

War in heaven? Doesn't sound like a safe place to visit.

He was correct in 1879 when he said peace will be taken from the earth in 1914=rev 6--

But it wasn't taken from the earth, just a small portion of it. Then peace returned a few years later. What, no prophecy of that? How about an even bigger loss of peace in 1939? Where was that prophecy? Prophecy is total bunk.

Since Jesus is pictured riding the white horse at Armageddon later in Rev, he thought that was the ride of the white horse at Rev 6--turns out it was the war in heaven.

What? How does one mix up a war in heaven with an earthly Armageddon? Horses in heaven? Sounds like Mr Russell might have been filled with a not-so-holy spirit.

A world war is not a small war.--Rev 6 the ride of the white horse( righteous war)--Jesus is pictured on the white horse at Armageddon, He thought it was that scenario, but it was the war in heaven. Also righteous war.

Where are these images of Jesus riding a white horse in heaven? Horses in heaven? What weapons were they using? You've gotta laugh. What about WW2? No prophecy? You can't make this stuff up. Oh, wait. Of course you can.

[POI]

Mr Russell confused the war in heaven for Armageddon.

That sounds like a pretty big OOPS! Mr. Russell does not sound very reliable. Maybe seek over endeavors. Can we circle back to the actual topic now?

(second attempt):

So to recap, you CANNOT locate the Verse(s) for which I asked? You know, the ones which tell the reader the following:

"If you possess all your facilities, the way to achieve salvation is by truly believing, and performing works. But if you are unable, it's okay, I'll judge you based upon your capabilities. And if you were never born, I'll give you a free pass"

And/or, "if you possess all your facilities, and you truly love me more than yourself, this will be demonstrated by performing XYZ for this long. And if you do not, then you do not really love me more than yourself." ---- "Oh, and if you live a full life, this would mean your works would equal XYZ, for this long each day. Oh, and here is the official order of importance, regarding the works hierarchy (this>that>other>etc....)

Because remember, just because you love someone more than you love yourself, in this situation, the person you love is still the one judging your love. You must demonstrate.

So what is God's standard, for Him to know you truly DO love Him more than yourself? I mean, do you give away 80% of your salary? other other other?.?.?

You know, something to that effect... If you cannot tell all of us specifically, how one is saved, then you are in the same boat as the rest of us?

[kjw47]

Mr Russell confused the war in heaven for Armageddon.

War in heaven? Doesn't sound like a safe place to visit.

He was correct in 1879 when he said peace will be taken from the earth in 1914=rev 6--

But it wasn't taken from the earth, just a small portion of it. Then peace returned a few years later. What, no prophecy of that? How about an even bigger loss of peace in 1939? Where was that prophecy? Prophecy is total bunk.

Since Jesus is pictured riding the white horse at Armageddon later in Rev, he thought that was the ride of the white horse at Rev 6--turns out it was the war in heaven.

What? How does one mix up a war in heaven with an earthly Armageddon? Horses in heaven? Sounds like Mr Russell might have been filled with a not-so-holy spirit.

A world war is not a small war.--Rev 6 the ride of the white horse( righteous war)--Jesus is pictured on the white horse at Armageddon, He thought it was that scenario, but it was the war in heaven. Also righteous war.

Where are these images of Jesus riding a white horse in heaven? Horses in heaven? What weapons were they using? You've gotta laugh. What about WW2? No prophecy? You can't make this stuff up. Oh, wait. Of course you can.

Rev 19:11- At Armageddon, Jesus leads Gods armies to the earth on a white horse.
I didnt make that prophecy up--In Daniel-2520 years after the removal of the last king in Jerusalem, Gods kingdom is established in heaven- 607bce that occurred-607 +2520=1914=Rev 6-He receives his crown, and peace will taken from the earth. Proving the prophecy correct.