Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[POI]

Ok, good point, that could be so.

Care to tackle post #632 now?

[1213]

Christians, if you were the ruler of the universe, and opted to be involved in some book of objective morals/rules/other, would YOU be satisfied with the job in which the Bible has given? If so, I'd have to ask WHY? Being there exists countless amounts of infighting among even the earnest and faithful.

Why call people "earnest and faithful", if they are not faithful to what is said in the Bible?

I think Bible is clear. Everyone can read it and see what it says. Can you show one scripture that you think is not clear?

[POI]

Christians, if you were the ruler of the universe, and opted to be involved in some book of objective morals/rules/other, would YOU be satisfied with the job in which the Bible has given? If so, I'd have to ask WHY? Being there exists countless amounts of infighting among even the earnest and faithful.

Why call people "earnest and faithful", if they are not faithful to what is said in the Bible?

You missed my point. Many are earnest believers and followers, while having a differing conclusion than you. I say because the Bible is not clear. Meaning, in one spot, it tells you one thing, and in another spot, it tells you something different.

I think Bible is clear.

But I have repeatedly explained why you are mistaken. Near the end of Romans 3 and the beginning of Romans 4 states the 'righteous' and the 'faithful' are one in the same. The two terms are synonymous. This means the answer would be B), as to how to achieve salvation. You think it is E). The verses you offer instead suggest a differing conclusion about being righteous. Again, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You have to ignore one explanation to accept the other explanation, which is exactly what you continue to do.

Everyone can read it and see what it says. Can you show one scripture that you think is not clear?

I've done that many times, but you ignore them. See above for my regurgitated example.

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Moving forward, are you or are you not going to address the whole of post 632, being so many of you Christians do not agree about any of the given topics listed? (i.e.):

Do you blame (the teacher) or (the student) when SO MANY do not agree about what the message says? If you do not ultimately blame the teacher, why?

[1213]

You missed my point. Many are earnest believers and followers, while having a differing conclusion than you. I say because the Bible is not clear. Meaning, in one spot, it tells you one thing, and in another spot, it tells you something different.

I think Bible is very clear. No mixed messages in the Bible. If you disagree, please give one real example.

...Near the end of Romans 3 and the beginning of Romans 4 states the 'righteous' and the 'faithful' are one in the same. The two terms are synonymous.

I don't see any intelligent reason to think they are synonymous.

Moving forward, are you or are you not going to address the whole of post 632, being so many of you Christians do not agree about any of the given topics listed? (i.e.):

Do you blame (the teacher) or (the student) when SO MANY do not agree about what the message says? If you do not ultimately blame the teacher, why?

I think you have made an artificial problem. If you think Bible doesn't give clear message, you should give the scripture that you think is not clear. Then I could check how it is. Now you are giving ideas that are not directly what Bible tells and therefore they don't tell anything about the Bible, only about concepts that may be somehow connected to the Bible, but are not exactly what is said in the Bible. In other words, I think you basically offer an straw man argument that doesn't prove your point.

[TRANSPONDER]

You missed my point. Many are earnest believers and followers, while having a differing conclusion than you. I say because the Bible is not clear. Meaning, in one spot, it tells you one thing, and in another spot, it tells you something different.

I think Bible is very clear. No mixed messages in the Bible. If you disagree, please give one real example.

...Near the end of Romans 3 and the beginning of Romans 4 states the 'righteous' and the 'faithful' are one in the same. The two terms are synonymous.

I don't see any intelligent reason to think they are synonymous.

Moving forward, are you or are you not going to address the whole of post 632, being so many of you Christians do not agree about any of the given topics listed? (i.e.):

Do you blame (the teacher) or (the student) when SO MANY do not agree about what the message says? If you do not ultimately blame the teacher, why?

I think you have made an artificial problem. If you think Bible doesn't give clear message, you should give the scripture that you think is not clear. Then I could check how it is. Now you are giving ideas that are not directly what Bible tells and therefore they don't tell anything about the Bible, only about concepts that may be somehow connected to the Bible, but are not exactly what is said in the Bible. In other words, I think you basically offer an straw man argument that doesn't prove your point.

Though in some cases, you have at least made a case (e.g oblivion rather tha eternal torture) generally what you think the Bibles ays is your own belief and interpreting it to suit yourself. I recall your attempts to rewrite Genesis 1 not to mention the guarantee of answered prayer. I seem to recall some faith claims regarding the 2nd coming and the resurrection, but I may be mistaken there. i do recall you demanding more that one occurrence in the Bible as though a contractual clause wasn't binding unless it was repeated. No, you have no authority to declare what is or is not the correct reading of anything in the Bible.,

[POI]

You missed my point. Many are earnest believers and followers, while having a differing conclusion than you. I say because the Bible is not clear. Meaning, in one spot, it tells you one thing, and in another spot, it tells you something different.

I think Bible is very clear. No mixed messages in the Bible. If you disagree, please give one real example.

...Near the end of Romans 3 and the beginning of Romans 4 states the 'righteous' and the 'faithful' are one in the same. The two terms are synonymous.

I don't see any intelligent reason to think they are synonymous.

Moving forward, are you or are you not going to address the whole of post 632, being so many of you Christians do not agree about any of the given topics listed? (i.e.):

Do you blame (the teacher) or (the student) when SO MANY do not agree about what the message says? If you do not ultimately blame the teacher, why?

I think you have made an artificial problem. If you think Bible doesn't give clear message, you should give the scripture that you think is not clear. Then I could check how it is. Now you are giving ideas that are not directly what Bible tells and therefore they don't tell anything about the Bible, only about concepts that may be somehow connected to the Bible, but are not exactly what is said in the Bible. In other words, I think you basically offer an straw man argument that doesn't prove your point.

Your continuous denial, without any just cause, is starting to get old. So... You are right, all Christians agree. The Bible is crystal clear. There is only one denomination, and all Christians agree on exactly how you are saved. The fact that I have repeatedly shown you that no one in this thread, who are Christians, disagree with you, I guess means nothing at all. Sorry to bother you.

And of course, Romans 3 and 4 does not suggest faith and righteousness are interchangeable at all. What the heck was I thinking.?.?.?

[POI]

The God of the Bible is the purveyor of confusion. Why?

How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process?

Answer key:

A) All go because of his grace
B) Faith/belief
C) Works
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

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Provided Christian answers, thus far:

Post 11: JW No answer
Post 27: Eloi No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 answer B)
Post 76: Tam answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 answer D)
Post 321: AFG answer D)
Post 462: 1213 answer F)
Post 564: Mea Von H answer B)

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Christians, imagine you are God for a moment. You are the creator of humans, and you really want a permanent relationship with your creation. You know most humans are either illiterate, stupid, and/or easily blinded/distracted by unwanted forces (natural and supernatural alike). You know there exists these collections of writings we later call the Bible, which apparently gives a road map on how to achieve eternal bliss - (or go to Heaven). You also know, because you are God, that most people will not achieve it. Many of which, however, try as they might. Would you, imagining yourself as God again, be satisfied with what the Bible conveys about going to Heaven? I'll answer, as a fellow imaginer... No. I would not be satisfied. If I know the majority of my creation was, (again), illiterate, dumb, and/or easily distracted, I will make sure the written word was very easy to follow and also not leave any room for interpretation. You know, like all here clearly agree that God does not like murder, theft, trespassing, etc. And YET, we have countless denominations, all earnest in their attempt to translate what the Bible says. In essence, I blame God. He could provide any tool for the task and chose this one? All we have is the Bible. And as we have discovered, none of you fine folks agree. If you were God, I bet you would have devised a better plan of attack. What'za think?

[1213]

...Would you, imagining yourself as God again, be satisfied with what the Bible conveys about going to Heaven? ... What'za think?[/color]

I think that the message is clear and good. If people twist Bible to mean something else than what it says, it is not the fault of the book.

[TRANSPONDER]

...Would you, imagining yourself as God again, be satisfied with what the Bible conveys about going to Heaven? ... What'za think?[/color]

I think that the message is clear and good. If people twist Bible to mean something else than what it says, it is not the fault of the book.

Doesn't matter what you think. Though of course Theists (their thinking being based on Faith) think that is all that it is about - maintaining Their own opinion.

The message is not the issue, it is the medium that is not clear and understandable, as I saw just now with all the believers getting in the ring to have it out. I don't care about Theology. It is the basic credibility of the Bible as a reliable record of events (and sayings) that is failing before we get to doctrine, teaching, theology and The Message.

[POI]

I think that the message is clear and good. If people twist Bible to mean something else than what it says, it is not the fault of the book.

If you think the message is "clear and good", then why does no Christian here, who responded to this thread, agree with your conclusion for the Bible God's method to salvation? I guess this means all other Christians here, who responded, are twisting?