Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[Mae von H]

God wants to save those with right understanding, not because of anything they do, but because of what they are.

In this instance, the 'right understanding' is faith is Jesus! ...

No, right understanding, righteousness, is what makes person to be for example faithful.

I agree. People can have faith in Jesus doing something he never promised to do. Right understanding is critical.

[benchwarmer]

No, what I say means, I decide what convinces me. I believe you do the same, you choose what convinces you.

Incorrect.

If you don't choose, who chooses for you what is convincing?

Did you not read the example I gave you? In that case, it was my taste buds reacting to the candy. I originally believed, based on experience, that all green candy tastes bad. You give me some green candy that I think tastes amazing. I'm convinced that not ALL green candy is bad based on my new experience.

I do NOT choose what tastes good. Nor do I choose what smells bad. Nor do I choose anything that convinces me based on all my prior experience.

Your thesis, as far as I understand it, is that you can simply choose to be convinced about something rather than being convinced by all your previous input.

Do you like a particular food? If so, simply choose to be convinced it tastes bad. Believe it tastes bad. (Actually believe it, not just pretend to believe it). If you can do that, you are truly unique. I think most readers, like myself, can't do that.

I get it, it's tantalizing to think we all just choose our beliefs. It makes Christian apologetics so much easier. Unfortunately for you, things don't work that way.

If you want to continue to use this apologetic, just realize that it's not going to get people on the fence to your side. They can test it out and find out if it works or not and that's bad for your argument since I expect most people are not capable of what you are claiming. I would suggest finding a better apologetic if you want some success, but it's up to your choice <- see what I did there? I know, I'm here all week

[POI]

God wants to save those with right understanding, not because of anything they do, but because of what they are.

In this instance, the 'right understanding' is faith is Jesus! ...

No, right understanding, righteousness, is what makes person to be for example faithful.

We are just going in circles here. The only one deemed truly "righteous" in their acts is Jesus. Your faith in Jesus then awards you a pass, as you are not righteous in your acts, like Jesus is. Human's acts will always fall short. Faith is key, answer B).

[POI]

God wants to save those with right understanding, not because of anything they do, but because of what they are.

In this instance, the 'right understanding' is faith is Jesus! ...

No, right understanding, righteousness, is what makes person to be for example faithful.

I agree. People can have faith in Jesus doing something he never promised to do. Right understanding is critical.

Thats great. But you are fighting a completely different fight than 1213. Which becomes, so ironically, the point of this thread... To demonstrate that all well-meaning believers receive conflicting interpretations, while trying their earnest to make sense of what the Bible states about salvation.

Were you planning on answering post 770?

[TRANSPONDER]

Yes. This is the point of the the whole debate. Essentially, it all looks asit would if there was no god there and it was all either natural or man - made.

Morals, Holy books, fairy tales. Man made.

Things, critters, events, natural.

Different interpretations of religions, never mind different religions, human fairy -tales.

Common agreement on what things are and came to be, Fact, so far as we can tell. One science, many religions.

And many sects of religions, and different personal beliefs within religions. And ifonly one is getting true Inspiration and the others are all mistaken, why can't they all be? Just as if all religions but one are wrong, why not all?

Because the Bible is more reliable than the others. That was always the case, and is the debate. Poking holes in evolution was never the case. That is fallacious Theist thinking, supposing that if one can debunk science, it leaves 'God' as the default. It does not, nevermind 'which god'. Faithbased thinking invalidates Theist apologetics from the start.

As to Bible apologetics, they are always evasive in the end, and often try to muddy the waters and smokescreen by saying we can't know what was meant which means that the gospels can't be trusted, anyway. The apologetic is the flawed thinking of destroy knowledge and it leaves God. But it destroys the case for the Bible, Christianity and God, too.

Faith is behind the dismissal we so often get. Dismissal of evidence,logic and even what the Bible says.

The infamous example ofOne of our Posting pals posting the resurrection text with contradictions left out (so he knew what they were) should have utterly discredited him but he is still here, dismissing everything but his own opinions as though he was a sage or prophet.

But that is just a particularly Good bad example of the dismissal, deceit and evasion that is stock in trade of theist apologetics, never mind abusing and insulting posts accusing atheists of being rude and insulting, when it is the reasoning methods being attacked, not the persons.

I don't know whether the Bible apologists are delicate snowflakes or whether the indignation is just a ploy to try to intimidate the other side. But it won't work, anyway.

[1213]

...The only one deemed truly "righteous" in their acts is Jesus...

I believe that is true, Jesus is the only truly righteous by acts. But, by what is said in the Bible, person can be counted righteous, even if he is not perfect in his acts. For example Noah is called righteous:

This is the history of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time. Noah walked with God.
Gen. 6:9

[TRANSPONDER]

...The only one deemed truly "righteous" in their acts is Jesus...

I believe that is true, Jesus is the only truly righteous by acts. But, by what is said in the Bible, person can be counted righteous, even if he is not perfect in his acts. For example Noah is called righteous:

This is the history of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time. Noah walked with God.
Gen. 6:9

Only by comparison with the rest of the world which is 'wicked'. He and his family are no better than they might be .Look at Lot and that lot (I shall keep making that joke until somebody laughs).

The thing is, Noah is a fairy tale with good and bad pre - selected for the narration with no validation. Just as the infamous acts of the Hebrews justified because God has supposedly picked them for his people, just as Paul deselected them unless they switched to Faith in Jesus.
The arbiter is not deeds but Faith, as I have told you as many times as you have insisted it is Deeds. It isn't. It is a group of people deciding that God is on their side.

Wow ... 91 guests. That is excellent. Welcome, welcome. Tea is at four, but any of you are welcome at any time.

[1213]

Only by comparison with the rest of the world which is 'wicked'. He and his family are no better than they might be .Look at Lot and that lot (I shall keep making that joke until somebody laughs).

The thing is, Noah is a fairy tale with good and bad pre - selected for the narration with no validation. Just as the infamous acts of the Hebrews justified because God has supposedly picked them for his people, just as Paul deselected them unless they switched to Faith in Jesus.
The arbiter is not deeds but Faith, as I have told you as many times as you have insisted it is Deeds. It isn't. It is a group of people deciding that God is on their side.

The thing is, I have no good reason to believe your baseless claims.

Faith and all other actions are only the result of persons mind. They don't make the mind. They are only signs of what kind of mind one has. Without works, it can be said one doesn't really have faith. And without faith, it can be said that one probably doesn't have righteous mind. Mind, faith and works form a chain form events. And the determining thing is the mind, because all actions come from the mind. It does not go so that first you do something and then you think what have you done.

If a person has righteous mind, it can be seen from his actions. And faith is one action. And if person has faith, it comes visible also in other actions. Like for example in the case of Noah, who understood to take seriously God's message and was loyal (faithful) to God and acted by the understanding and faith. What Noah did, tells that he has righteous mind and therefore he can be called righteous.

[TRANSPONDER]

Only by comparison with the rest of the world which is 'wicked'. He and his family are no better than they might be .Look at Lot and that lot (I shall keep making that joke until somebody laughs).

The thing is, Noah is a fairy tale with good and bad pre - selected for the narration with no validation. Just as the infamous acts of the Hebrews justified because God has supposedly picked them for his people, just as Paul deselected them unless they switched to Faith in Jesus.
The arbiter is not deeds but Faith, as I have told you as many times as you have insisted it is Deeds. It isn't. It is a group of people deciding that God is on their side.

The thing is, I have no good reason to believe your baseless claims.

Faith and all other actions are only the result of persons mind. They don't make the mind. They are only signs of what kind of mind one has. Without works, it can be said one doesn't really have faith. And without faith, it can be said that one probably doesn't have righteous mind. Mind, faith and works form a chain form events. And the determining thing is the mind, because all actions come from the mind. It does not go so that first you do something and then you think what have you done.

If a person has righteous mind, it can be seen from his actions. And faith is one action. And if person has faith, it comes visible also in other actions. Like for example in the case of Noah, who understood to take seriously God's message and was loyal (faithful) to God and acted by the understanding and faith. What Noah did, tells that he has righteous mind and therefore he can be called righteous.

The thing is, I have no reason to believe your baseless claims and every reason not to. I already pointed out that No's lot of inbreeders were no better than the rest of us. We are all still unrighteous. Noah brought the sin of the fall with him. It looks like what makes Righteous is being on the right side, Works don't matter, but believing the right things do. Your final lines show that. You pretty much spellout what I said - Godfaith makes righteous and doing what God supposedly says (which seems so often what the Church, group or individual prefers) is a spin -off from that, and needn't be what we would call Righteous anyway.

It is plain as a pikestaff in Paul that the Jews had been Righteous because the "Believed God" (had Faith in God and followed the Torah) Suddenly, Jeses was hung out to dry and the Jews weren't Righteous anymore - unless they had Faith in Jesus. Then they were. It is Faith, not works that makes a person Righteous, at least in the view of Religion.

There are many signs of what mind one has. The faithbased mind apparently results in dismissing evidence, denying the undeniable and rewriting the Bible at need. We have seen it so many times. And that is what Faith does - it makes a person impervious to reason.

[POI]

...The only one deemed truly "righteous" in their acts is Jesus...

I believe that is true, Jesus is the only truly righteous by acts. But, by what is said in the Bible, person can be counted righteous, even if he is not perfect in his acts. For example Noah is called righteous:

This is the history of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time. Noah walked with God.
Gen. 6:9

Noah too possessed answer B), as he was with God. That's all it takes. Noah was not "sinless" in his acts, unless you wish to argue he was?

Further, let's play devil's advocate for moment. If Noah, and some others were/are righteous, then why did God drown them?