Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[POI]

Seriously? It's anything your believed upon God does not like. Take your pick. Here is some. (i.e.):

Abominable – Rev 21:8...

That doesn't seem to have the word sin, I doubt that any of the scriptures you gave has the word sin. There can be many things that God doesn't like, but that does not necessary mean it is a sin.

LOL! Then I guess "murder" and "adultery" are not 'sins' either Seriously 1213, no one is buying what you are selling.

"Thou shalt not murder" (or) "Thou shalt not commit adultery"

If God is telling folks not to do it, then doing it anyways is logically labeled a 'sin'.

sin - "an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law"

It is possible that the family is saved from a great flood, if the head of the family is righteous. This doesn't necessary mean they all will get eternal life, which is promised only for righteous.

Then by your logic, being 'righteous', whatever that actually happens to be, may not actually be a requirement for salvation either? If your dad is deemed righteous, you may get a pass. Which then means the answer could be a combination of A) and/or other. But you do not seem to know for sure either. Which, again, is the point of this thread.

[1213]

LOL! Then I guess "murder" and "adultery" are not 'sins' either Seriously 1213, no one is buying what you are selling.

"Thou shalt not murder" (or) "Thou shalt not commit adultery"

If God is telling folks not to do it, then doing it anyways is logically labeled a 'sin'.

sin - "an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law"

Luckily I am not selling anything. I just don't buy your claim that something is a sin, if it is not said so in the Bible. This does not mean that nothing is wrong, or unlawful. Murder and adultery are wrong, I just think they are not necessary sin.

It is possible that the family is saved from a great flood, if the head of the family is righteous. This doesn't necessary mean they all will get eternal life, which is promised only for righteous.

Then by your logic, being 'righteous', whatever that actually happens to be, may not actually be a requirement for salvation either?

Only unrighteous people need salvation, rescue from the judgment that would come because of sin.

[POI]

I just don't buy your claim that something is a sin, if it is not said so in the Bible. This does not mean that nothing is wrong, or unlawful. Murder and adultery are wrong, I just think they are not necessary sin.

Only unrighteous people need salvation, rescue from the judgment that would come because of sin.

Until we square away what God (does and does not) label a 'sin', we will have to table this part. Sounds like your Biblical view is even more rogue than I had already thought prior.

[POI]

Christians, how exactly does one achieve salvation? Seems like such a straightforward and easily answerable question. And yet, your answers vary widely (i.e.):

Answer key:

A) Unconditional grace - (Jesus already did all the dirty work, everyone goes now since he had to die for all, as all fall short)
B) Faith/belief - (accept him as your savior, ask him for guidance, apply trust in him)
C) Works - (necessary additional acts or tasks in which Jesus also deems 'good')
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

********************

Provided Christian answers, thus far:

Post 11: JW No answer
Post 27: Eloi No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 answer B)
Post 76: Tam answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 answer D)
Post 321: AFG answer D)
Post 758: Mea Von H answer A) or E)?
post xxx: 1213 still exploring?

[1213]

Christians, how exactly does one achieve salvation? Seems like such a straightforward and easily answerable question. And yet, your answers vary widely (i.e.):

Answer key:

A) Unconditional grace
...
post xxx: 1213 still exploring?

Finally I think I can give an answer that you can understand. But, it requires defining the words salvation and unconditional grace.

Salvation = rescue from judgment. Not the same as getting eternal life, which is promised only for righteous.
Grace = God is merciful and offers forgiveness for all freely, without conditions. But, obviously people can reject the offer, and then it is not useful.

By these definitions my answer is A.

[POI]

Christians, how exactly does one achieve salvation? Seems like such a straightforward and easily answerable question. And yet, your answers vary widely (i.e.):

Answer key:

A) Unconditional grace - (Jesus already did all the dirty work, everyone goes now since he had to die for all, as all fall short)
B) Faith/belief - (accept him as your savior, ask him for guidance, apply trust in him)
C) Works - (necessary additional acts or tasks in which Jesus also deems 'good')
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

********************

Provided Christian answers, thus far:

Post 11: JW No answer
Post 27: Eloi No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 answer B)
Post 76: Tam answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 answer D)
Post 321: AFG answer D)
Post 758: Mea Von H answer A) or E)?
post 805: 1213 answer A)

[TRANSPONDER]

Christians, how exactly does one achieve salvation? Seems like such a straightforward and easily answerable question. And yet, your answers vary widely (i.e.):

Answer key:

A) Unconditional grace
...
post xxx: 1213 still exploring?

Finally I think I can give an answer that you can understand. But, it requires defining the words salvation and unconditional grace.

Salvation = rescue from judgment. Not the same as getting eternal life, which is promised only for righteous.
Grace = God is merciful and offers forgiveness for all freely, without conditions. But, obviously people can reject the offer, and then it is not useful.

By these definitions my answer is A.

That strikes me as inadequate, at least. To offer salvation from judgement (for sin) without eternal life is like allowing someone to return a purchase but not giving their money back.

You surely know enough of the whole doctrine of sin to know that the price Adam paid for sinning was losing life. which in Christian terms means eternal life in heaven. Thus salvation is meaningless unless the reward is eternal life just as Adam had before the fall.

And I can't agree that grace is given without conditions.I recall you said yourself that works, rather than faith is what makes a person righteous. The sinner can't get grace (even if they are a believing sinner, give or take a show of repentance) as Paul came to realise. For him believing in Jesus was what released man from sin (except the Jews, who were burdened by the Law) but grace and salvation could be lost by sinning, and I agree with what I recall you argued that works count to that extent, in Christian doctrine.

[1213]

Thus salvation is meaningless unless the reward is eternal life just as Adam had before the fall.

I don't think it is meaningless, because it gives a new beginning. Or do you think it is meaningless to clean clothes, if they may get dirty again? In Biblical point of view the idea is basically that person has clean clothes. And everyone with clean clothes may enter the life. However, if you mess your clothes, then you don't get in. That is why Jesus taught that people must be born anew and reject sinful way.

And I can't agree that grace is given without conditions.I recall you said yourself that works, rather than faith is what makes a person righteous.

I say, if person is righteous, he chooses to be loyal (faithful) to God and it will become visible also in his works. This means, first is righteousness, then faithfulness and works. Works or faith doesn't make person righteous.

[TRANSPONDER]

Thus salvation is meaningless unless the reward is eternal life just as Adam had before the fall.

I don't think it is meaningless, because it gives a new beginning. Or do you think it is meaningless to clean clothes, if they may get dirty again? In Biblical point of view the idea is basically that person has clean clothes. And everyone with clean clothes may enter the life. However, if you mess your clothes, then you don't get in. That is why Jesus taught that people must be born anew and reject sinful way.

And I can't agree that grace is given without conditions.I recall you said yourself that works, rather than faith is what makes a person righteous.

I say, if person is righteous, he chooses to be loyal (faithful) to God and it will become visible also in his works. This means, first is righteousness, then faithfulness and works. Works or faith doesn't make person righteous.

Well, yes, you can say salvation to release us from the sinful way God made us, but why not just do it? The crucifixion as an act of washing away sin is meaningless because (without the Fall) sin is just how we were made. Which means man was not at first immortal.

There is the problem also with Righteousness because (Paul says) this is the way man (all men) were made before the fall. Thus Gentiles can become Righteous, not through works, but through faith in Jesus (replacing Belief in God's words,as I recallyou argued). This act alone makes a person Righteous and should make a believer sinless.But as we see in Cor I, it did not make men sinless and paul had to appeal to them to stop wawing their private parts at their aunties or risk forfeiting salvation.

Faithfulness is achieved through Faith in nJesus and Works is only necessary to avoid losing that salvation by sinning.

I know you argued that it was not Abraham's faith in God thast made hin Righteous, but Faith in his words. That is being moral.

But Paul says we are all (gentiles too) naturally moral apart from sin, so (and I recall I argued this before) non Christians could get salvation, too, by being moral, before Jesus was banged up and made Faith in his resurrection necessary and just being moral wouldn't do it.

This implies before Jesus Faith in YHWH was necessary to obtain salvation and noty just his Words (and following them) or Righteous heathens could be saved, too.

Jesus' crucifixion served only as the law served the Jews - making it almost impossible to be saved unless the Jews observed the law perfectly as Peter says 'A burden our fathers were unable to bear' (Acts). Jesus makes humankind sinful (even if they weren't before - if Eden isn't true, which is my whole point) unless they have faith in Jesus.

[1213]

Well, yes, you can say salvation to release us from the sinful way God made us, but why not just do it? The crucifixion as an act of washing away sin is meaningless because (without the Fall) sin is just how we were made. Which means man was not at first immortal.

Jesus had the right to forgive sins freely, even before his death. Therefore death was not necessary for to forgive.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Also disciples of Jesus have the licence to forgive:

If you forgive anyone’s sins, they have been forgiven them. If you retain anyone’s sins, they have been retained.”
John 20:23

And the Biblical reason why Jesus died is:

For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9

There is the problem also with Righteousness because (Paul says) this is the way man (all men) were made before the fall. Thus Gentiles can become Righteous, not through works, but through faith in Jesus (replacing Belief in God's words,as I recallyou argued). This act alone makes a person Righteous and should make a believer sinless.

Where Paul says people were righteous before the fall?

It is sad that people don't seem to understand that faith, belief and works are only the results. If person has righteous mind, it produces righteous "fruit". If one has that righteous "fruit", he can be counted righteous. No act (faith, belief or work) of human makes him righteous.

But Paul says we are all (gentiles too) naturally moral ...

Please show the scripture.

Jesus' crucifixion served only as the law served the Jews - making it almost impossible to be saved unless the Jews observed the law perfectly as Peter says 'A burden our fathers were unable to bear' (Acts). Jesus makes humankind sinful (even if they weren't before - if Eden isn't true, which is my whole point) unless they have faith in Jesus.

If one obeys the law perfectly, he doesn't need to be saved. Person needs to be saved, if he has done wrongly and gained the wage of sin.