Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?
For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.
Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
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Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #1In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #631You, being a Christian and all, should understand context. The verse in question is (i.e.):1213 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 5:10 amWhat about this example:
The Witch makes the mundane sinister, from the tormented shapes of the corn husks in the field to the weird glow of pewter by candlelight.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torment
If shapes of corn husks were tormented, were they conscious?
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46
The verse above is telling the conscious human that they will either receive eternal punishment or eternal life, all in the same sentence/passage. As I stated prior, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. The verse is not speaking about inanimate objects, like rocks or corn. This is my point.
Thus, just like the Bible is not clear about <the WAY> to achieve salvation, it seems the Bible is also not clear as to <whether or not> the Bible suggests a literal eternal tormenting hell fire. Good job Bible writers A never ending debate of infighting, among millions of Christians, also exists -- as to <whether or not> a literal eternal tormenting hell exists.
The entire point of this thread is to demonstrate that the Bible, where speaking about very important topics, like salvation/other, is as clear as mud. The topic demonstrates how salvation is not clear, and you demonstrate, single-handedly, about the topic of hell. Add other topics, like slavery, homosexuality, beating your children, etc., and you then have a recipe for deeming this book less worthy or less useful than cheap single-ply toilet paper
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #632Whether or not the Bible God exists, one thing looks to be clear. God chooses to remain unclear, in regard to some very important topics. The proof is in the pudding. We have countless denominations, and/or individual earnest believers, who cannot agree about some very important topics, such as, but not limited to:
1. The way to achieve salvation?
2. Does a literal eternal consciously tormenting hell exist?
3. Slavery?
4. Homosexuality?
5. Beating your children?
6. Prayer?
...and maybe many more.......
**********************
Christians, if you were the ruler of the universe, and opted to be involved in some book of objective morals/rules/other, would YOU be satisfied with the job in which the Bible has given? If so, I'd have to ask WHY? Being there exists countless amounts of infighting among even the earnest and faithful.
The knee-jerk reaction is to state something to the effect of... "It isn't God's fault many do not understand correctly". But isn't it?
1. The way to achieve salvation?
2. Does a literal eternal consciously tormenting hell exist?
3. Slavery?
4. Homosexuality?
5. Beating your children?
6. Prayer?
...and maybe many more.......
**********************
Christians, if you were the ruler of the universe, and opted to be involved in some book of objective morals/rules/other, would YOU be satisfied with the job in which the Bible has given? If so, I'd have to ask WHY? Being there exists countless amounts of infighting among even the earnest and faithful.
The knee-jerk reaction is to state something to the effect of... "It isn't God's fault many do not understand correctly". But isn't it?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #633It says "go away into eternal punishment", not "they will receive eternal punishment". No wonder if it is unclear, when you change the message that way.
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #634Thank you.
I agree, you offer an utter interpretation. I don't think there is any good reason to think that for humans it means always conscious suffering.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 7:36 am but for people torment means when they are conscious. This is utter Interpretation ...
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #635Yes to be precise I sometimes say Bible God. I don't say that all other gods are fictional. For example some have kept a golden calf as their god and I can believe such a thing exists. I have seen images of it.boatsnguitars wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 6:35 amBut you call it the Bible God - apparently to distinguish from other gods? Aren't other gods fictional?1213 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 5:11 amNo.boatsnguitars wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 11:16 am Are you suggesting that God is a character in a fiction?
I just wouldn't keep it as my God. Same is with all other alleged gods.
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #636No, here is what the verse says <in full context>.
"will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You either (go away) into one or the other. By your twist in logic, the verse would not suggest one may receive life either
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #637You're a Christian Polytheist? That's unique!1213 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 21, 2024 7:23 amYes to be precise I sometimes say Bible God. I don't say that all other gods are fictional. For example some have kept a golden calf as their god and I can believe such a thing exists. I have seen images of it.boatsnguitars wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 6:35 amBut you call it the Bible God - apparently to distinguish from other gods? Aren't other gods fictional?1213 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 5:11 amNo.boatsnguitars wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 11:16 am Are you suggesting that God is a character in a fiction?
I just wouldn't keep it as my God. Same is with all other alleged gods.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #638Well we pays our money and takes our choice, as they say. It was originally ( I think) a pharisee belief that the dead would resurrect and by judged. The worthy to eternal life on earth under Messianic rule and the rest consigned to oblivion. The idea (a contradictory one) of people going to heaven straight away and never mind their corpses, seems to have come later, and I find nothing in Paul that suggests to me that he had any but the Pharisee view of the last Days. I find this is getting to angels and pinheads territory, and of course I prefer to argue whether any of the doctrine is true and never mind what it actually claims.1213 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 21, 2024 7:23 amThank you.
I agree, you offer an utter interpretation. I don't think there is any good reason to think that for humans it means always conscious suffering.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 7:36 am but for people torment means when they are conscious. This is utter Interpretation ...
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #639Ok, good point, that could be so.POI wrote: ↑Sun Jan 21, 2024 12:52 pmNo, here is what the verse says <in full context>.
"will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You either (go away) into one or the other. By your twist in logic, the verse would not suggest one may receive life either
Luckily there are other scriptures that support the idea of continuous life for righteous.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
The righteous shall inherit the land, And live in it forever.
Ps. 37:29
Riches don't profit in the day of wrath, But righteousness deliv-ers from death.
Prov. 11:4
The wicked is brought down in his calamity, But in death, the righteous has a refuge.
Prov. 14:32
My shield is with God, who saves the upright in heart.
Ps. 7:10
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #640But, you know, the idea of punishment implies more than just wiping out in an eternal fire. Still, I suppose it could be argued that being denied eternal life is punishment enough. To me, it isn't punishment at all.Grovelling eternally to a self - obsessed celestial dictator might be considered punishment, so I don';tbalme you if you reject a heavenly life but think it'll be eternal life on earth.