Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[POI]

torment doesn't necessary require that the tormented is conscious.

How might someone be tormented if they are not conscious?
...

What about this example:

The Witch makes the mundane sinister, from the tormented shapes of the corn husks in the field to the weird glow of pewter by candlelight.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torment

If shapes of corn husks were tormented, were they conscious?

You, being a Christian and all, should understand context. The verse in question is (i.e.):

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46

The verse above is telling the conscious human that they will either receive eternal punishment or eternal life, all in the same sentence/passage. As I stated prior, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. The verse is not speaking about inanimate objects, like rocks or corn. This is my point.

Thus, just like the Bible is not clear about <the WAY> to achieve salvation, it seems the Bible is also not clear as to <whether or not> the Bible suggests a literal eternal tormenting hell fire. Good job Bible writers A never ending debate of infighting, among millions of Christians, also exists -- as to <whether or not> a literal eternal tormenting hell exists.

The entire point of this thread is to demonstrate that the Bible, where speaking about very important topics, like salvation/other, is as clear as mud. The topic demonstrates how salvation is not clear, and you demonstrate, single-handedly, about the topic of hell. Add other topics, like slavery, homosexuality, beating your children, etc., and you then have a recipe for deeming this book less worthy or less useful than cheap single-ply toilet paper

[POI]

Whether or not the Bible God exists, one thing looks to be clear. God chooses to remain unclear, in regard to some very important topics. The proof is in the pudding. We have countless denominations, and/or individual earnest believers, who cannot agree about some very important topics, such as, but not limited to:

1. The way to achieve salvation?
2. Does a literal eternal consciously tormenting hell exist?
3. Slavery?
4. Homosexuality?
5. Beating your children?
6. Prayer?
...and maybe many more.......

**********************

Christians, if you were the ruler of the universe, and opted to be involved in some book of objective morals/rules/other, would YOU be satisfied with the job in which the Bible has given? If so, I'd have to ask WHY? Being there exists countless amounts of infighting among even the earnest and faithful.

The knee-jerk reaction is to state something to the effect of... "It isn't God's fault many do not understand correctly". But isn't it?

[1213]

The verse above is telling the conscious human that they will either receive eternal punishment or eternal life, all in the same sentence/passage. ..

It says "go away into eternal punishment", not "they will receive eternal punishment". No wonder if it is unclear, when you change the message that way.

[1213]

Of course we can torment an inanimate object

Thank you.

but for people torment means when they are conscious. This is utter Interpretation ...

I agree, you offer an utter interpretation. I don't think there is any good reason to think that for humans it means always conscious suffering.

[1213]

Are you suggesting that God is a character in a fiction?

No.

But you call it the Bible God - apparently to distinguish from other gods? Aren't other gods fictional?

Yes to be precise I sometimes say Bible God. I don't say that all other gods are fictional. For example some have kept a golden calf as their god and I can believe such a thing exists. I have seen images of it.



I just wouldn't keep it as my God. Same is with all other alleged gods.

[POI]

The verse above is telling the conscious human that they will either receive eternal punishment or eternal life, all in the same sentence/passage. ..

It says "go away into eternal punishment", not "they will receive eternal punishment". No wonder if it is unclear, when you change the message that way.

No, here is what the verse says <in full context>.

"will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You either (go away) into one or the other. By your twist in logic, the verse would not suggest one may receive life either

[boatsnguitars]

Are you suggesting that God is a character in a fiction?

No.

But you call it the Bible God - apparently to distinguish from other gods? Aren't other gods fictional?

Yes to be precise I sometimes say Bible God. I don't say that all other gods are fictional. For example some have kept a golden calf as their god and I can believe such a thing exists. I have seen images of it.



I just wouldn't keep it as my God. Same is with all other alleged gods.

You're a Christian Polytheist? That's unique!

[TRANSPONDER]

Of course we can torment an inanimate object

Thank you.

but for people torment means when they are conscious. This is utter Interpretation ...

I agree, you offer an utter interpretation. I don't think there is any good reason to think that for humans it means always conscious suffering.

Well we pays our money and takes our choice, as they say. It was originally ( I think) a pharisee belief that the dead would resurrect and by judged. The worthy to eternal life on earth under Messianic rule and the rest consigned to oblivion. The idea (a contradictory one) of people going to heaven straight away and never mind their corpses, seems to have come later, and I find nothing in Paul that suggests to me that he had any but the Pharisee view of the last Days. I find this is getting to angels and pinheads territory, and of course I prefer to argue whether any of the doctrine is true and never mind what it actually claims.

[1213]

The verse above is telling the conscious human that they will either receive eternal punishment or eternal life, all in the same sentence/passage. ..

It says "go away into eternal punishment", not "they will receive eternal punishment". No wonder if it is unclear, when you change the message that way.

No, here is what the verse says <in full context>.

"will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You either (go away) into one or the other. By your twist in logic, the verse would not suggest one may receive life either

Ok, good point, that could be so.

Luckily there are other scriptures that support the idea of continuous life for righteous.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
The righteous shall inherit the land, And live in it forever.
Ps. 37:29
Riches don't profit in the day of wrath, But righteousness deliv-ers from death.
Prov. 11:4
The wicked is brought down in his calamity, But in death, the righteous has a refuge.
Prov. 14:32
My shield is with God, who saves the upright in heart.
Ps. 7:10

[TRANSPONDER]

But, you know, the idea of punishment implies more than just wiping out in an eternal fire. Still, I suppose it could be argued that being denied eternal life is punishment enough. To me, it isn't punishment at all.Grovelling eternally to a self - obsessed celestial dictator might be considered punishment, so I don';tbalme you if you reject a heavenly life but think it'll be eternal life on earth.