Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[POI]

No greater has any than he lay down his life for his friend or the beloved.

I already covered this exact scenario. I asked if it is possible to love all this much, aside from your family or close friends. Hence, let's explore your plausible answers of A) or E). Which one of the two are you think'n?

Answer to first question, how should I know? Do I know everyone on the planet? Do I have access to the life stories of everyone in history? No. So logically speaking, no man can know the answer to his as we do not have access to the information.

I do not recall from memory A and E so I will look them up and get back to you.

Your A and E are references to going to Heaven, not loving people. You need some new alphabet answers. But I can offer some that work:

A. Some people do this some of the time
B. No one does this at any time
C. Some people were not doing this but became followers of Christ and receive the power to become sons of God and did this more and more with the past failures being forgiven so that in the end, all that remained was the times they did do this. D.Since one can only lay down one‘s life out of love for another once and we do not have all that information, we do not know.


This works.

You stated the criteria was to love all as much as yourself. I asked if anyone is capable of this. You stated only Jesus. I agree. Your given answers above also reflect that no one can achieve this request. Your given/supplied answers now suggests that the criteria is NOT to love all as much as yourself. With every response, your answers become more illogical. If one is to select from your provided A) thru D) above, they all fall short of the criteria. And yet, you state "this works".

Please try again. Here are the options (again). What is the criteria to get into Heaven?

A) God offers (un)conditional grace for some/all
B) belief/faith
C) works
D) both B) and C)
E) no one is worthy, no one goes
F) Some other option(s) which do not already encompass the above

[Mae von H]

No greater has any than he lay down his life for his friend or the beloved.

I already covered this exact scenario. I asked if it is possible to love all this much, aside from your family or close friends. Hence, let's explore your plausible answers of A) or E). Which one of the two are you think'n?

Answer to first question, how should I know? Do I know everyone on the planet? Do I have access to the life stories of everyone in history? No. So logically speaking, no man can know the answer to his as we do not have access to the information.

I do not recall from memory A and E so I will look them up and get back to you.

Your A and E are references to going to Heaven, not loving people. You need some new alphabet answers. But I can offer some that work:

A. Some people do this some of the time
B. No one does this at any time
C. Some people were not doing this but became followers of Christ and receive the power to become sons of God and did this more and more with the past failures being forgiven so that in the end, all that remained was the times they did do this. D.Since one can only lay down one‘s life out of love for another once and we do not have all that information, we do not know.


This works.

You stated the criteria was to love all as much as yourself. I asked if anyone is capable of this. You stated only Jesus. I agree. Your given answers above also reflect that no one can achieve this request. Your given/supplied answers now suggests that the criteria is NOT to love all as much as yourself. With every response, your answers become more illogical. If one is to select from your provided A) thru D) above, they all fall short of the criteria. And yet, you state "this works".

Yes, I can see your response is warranted and I appreciate your patience with my answers. The answer I gave is true but there is something left out that needs to be added to provide clarity. That is, the all important element of forgiveness. That is, though the criteria is high, we are judged by how we treated other people which can hardly be more just, there is forgiveness for some for the times we did not live up to that standard. This is where the a,b,c, options provided do not reflect the complexity of the matter. So if we say that only Jesus could do so (which truthfully we cannot know but since this person is NOT us, does not matter,) there is still an option provided for all with conditions.

Please try again. Here are the options (again). What is the criteria to get into Heaven?

A) God offers (un)conditional grace for some/all
B) belief/faith
C) works
D) both B) and C)
E) no one is worthy, no one goes
F) Some other option(s) which do not already encompass the above

You leave out the most important criteria and make is sound like no love for God or man is needed and that this is kind of like requirements to enter an educational institution. If one is to list entry level requirements, they would not differ much from the list above.

A) the institution offers unconditional entry for all or some
B) just believe you will be accept and it will be so
C) show us some activities on your side that are sufficient
D) B and C
E) No one is ever accepted (pretty mean of us isn‘t it?)
F) Other not mentioned in any form above

When Jesus was asked the above question you ask, he gave quite different answers to different men. You insist on one answer for all and it has to be one of the above. What you do not allow for is God responding to the question individually, which is obviously what needs to happen as the criteria is a relationship with God. This is not an option on your list. So my answer is:

G) do justly by others, love mercy when you suffer injustice from them, and walk humbly with God. (To do this sufficiently requires more than merely a decision to do so, but that is another discussion.)

Any man who fulfills G will not fail to be with God and people after he dies.

What moves my heart for you, is that you seem to long for the very thing you do not allow in your answers. You still long for some kind of personal touch from Him and yet that is not an option you offer as an answer.

[1213]

The good reason to try it is to see if you actually can do that. It's called testing someone's claim and seeing if it's true.
...

What could prevent me to do it, except my own will?

What would prevent you is your current beliefs obviously. If you are currently convinced of something, you can't just unconvince yourself by a simple willing yourself to all of a sudden be unconvinced.

And what I believe is by my free will choice. If I would not like the truth, I could choose otherwise.

What you are suggesting is that you could instantly decide to believe in Hinduism instead of Christianity with no extra information than you currently have. Then, 3 minutes later with still no extra information, simply decide to believe Buddhism. If you are somehow really capable of that, then you are not like the rest of us

Do you not know that many people change their beliefs and convert to different religion. Why do you think it would not be possible for me?

Now let's test your theory:

After texting your friends, you sit back and ponder the situation. You have not heard a sound from your garage. Do you believe:

1) The rake is still balanced and standing up?
2) The rake has fallen over and now lying on the ground?

You probably pick (1) since you didn't hear it fall over. IF this is the case, then simply change your belief and believe it that it has now fallen over.

I would say, I don't know, because I would have no good reason to have any belief about that.

OR: You thought you heard a 'clunk' from the garage. Now you probably pick (2). IF this is the case, then simply change your belief and believe it is still standing up.

In either case, can you really sit there and simply change your belief with no extra information? You can't see it anymore. Be honest please. Are you really able to change your beliefs based on nothing other than willpower? I realize this is a tantalizing apologetic so that you can blame people for 'simply choosing' not to believe your favorite god concept, theology, or whatever.

In this example it is my choice what I would believe. I could believe that the voice meant that it fall, or I could believe it was something else.

I conditionally accept most history that I have learned about. I believe that it might be correct, but I also believe that much of it cannot be completely known and some of it can be overturned with new evidence. For example, when I was a kid, the commonly accepted date for discovery of North America was 1492 by Columbus. Later discoveries have 'up ended' that belief and we now know that people 'discovered' NA much earlier. They have found artifacts that scientifically date much earlier and appear to be from the Vikings.

Can you tell what is the reason why do you choose to believe the later evidence is true?

[1213]

What is preventing me, other than my own will?

Exactly. You cannot "will" yourself into believing in something in which you are not already convinced about. Otherwise, simply 'will' yourself to truly believe in Santa Claus for 24 hours. You can't, unless you are already truly convinced.

It seems to me that you don't understand my point. There is nothing that prevents me other than myself, that is why it can't be said i couldn't do it. I just don't do it, because I don't want to do so, it is against my will.

According to Romans 3, 'righteousness' comes by having faith in Jesus. Like I already said, I did not hear of Jesus until I was about 4 years old. Before this, I had no idea who he was. Hence, I was not yet 'righteous' until I acquired faith in Jesus as a child. If I died before, I was not yet deemed 'righteous', because, again, I did not possess faith in Jesus -- (per Romans 3). Does Jesus offer option A) (un)conditional here?

It is said: "justifies those who have faith in Jesus". Justifies means, person is counted righteous. Which means, those who have faith in Jesus are counted righteous. It does not mean that the faith makes person righteous. The faith is only a result of that person is righteous. That person has faith, is a sign of that person is righteous. Therefore one can be counted righteous, justified, if he has faith.

Faith is not causing a change in person, because it is only a result of what kind of person one is.

[benchwarmer]

And what I believe is by my free will choice. If I would not like the truth, I could choose otherwise.

What sane person chooses to believe what they currently believe to be false?

i.e. You are currently convinced the stories in the Bible are true. How would you be able to simply decide to be unconvinced with no other information? You are saying you could just choose to believe the stories are false even though you currently find them convincing. I don't believe you.

What you are suggesting is that you could instantly decide to believe in Hinduism instead of Christianity with no extra information than you currently have. Then, 3 minutes later with still no extra information, simply decide to believe Buddhism. If you are somehow really capable of that, then you are not like the rest of us

Do you not know that many people change their beliefs and convert to different religion. Why do you think it would not be possible for me?

You continue to miss the point.

People don't just decide, even when currently convinced of something, to simply believe the opposite.

I changed my beliefs about Christianity. It didn't happen because I just woke up one day and thought "You know what, it's Monday and I don't believe in the stories in the Bible anymore even though I find them convincing."

This seems to be the apologetic that some would like to claim happens so that they can blame peoples "simple choice to not believe" when we all know that's not how it works.

I stopped believing because I discovered convincing (to me) evidence that rendered the stories false. At that point my belief changed. I didn't just make a 'will power' decision. I became convinced of a new truth and my beliefs followed.

[Mae von H]

And what I believe is by my free will choice. If I would not like the truth, I could choose otherwise.

What sane person chooses to believe what they currently believe to be false?

i.e. You are currently convinced the stories in the Bible are true. How would you be able to simply decide to be unconvinced with no other information? You are saying you could just choose to believe the stories are false even though you currently find them convincing. I don't believe you.

What you are suggesting is that you could instantly decide to believe in Hinduism instead of Christianity with no extra information than you currently have. Then, 3 minutes later with still no extra information, simply decide to believe Buddhism. If you are somehow really capable of that, then you are not like the rest of us

Do you not know that many people change their beliefs and convert to different religion. Why do you think it would not be possible for me?

You continue to miss the point.

People don't just decide, even when currently convinced of something, to simply believe the opposite.

They certainly do. The alcoholic convinces himself that one drink won't hurt. The battered wife convinces herself that he won't beat her anymore. People continue to decide to believe what they know to be false because it offers them some comfort or something else. How many stories are there where people KNEW instinctively that something was wrong and nevertheless ignored it only to later admit that they actually KNEW what they were believing was not the truth. It is very very common.

I changed my beliefs about Christianity. It didn't happen because I just woke up one day and thought "You know what, it's Monday and I don't believe in the stories in the Bible anymore even though I find them convincing."

This seems to be the apologetic that some would like to claim happens so that they can blame peoples "simple choice to not believe" when we all know that's not how it works.

How it works is one starts feeding oneself the input that will lead to the desired conclusion. That is where the choice is. Let's look at a different faith. A man convinces himself that a coworker loves him. He feeds himself "proof" of this every day. Everyone else knows that she is in love with Fred who does not work there and they are planning on getting married next year. So she is happy and warm and laughing with everyone. But this guy thinks it is because she secretly is enamoured with him. He also did not wake up one day and decide she loved him at breakfast and he was going to pursue that. That is a strawman argument. No one does this on any matter. But what one does is feed oneself the "evidence" to achieve the desired faith or lack thereof. And it works. The choice is made to feed oneself what one is tempted to believe. This you keep ignoring.

I stopped believing because I discovered convincing (to me) evidence that rendered the stories false. At that point my belief changed. I didn't just make a 'will power' decision. I became convinced of a new truth and my beliefs followed.

Ah, see. You feed yourself "evidence" that the accounts are false. Since everyone knows how the internet works and one seeks out what one is interested in, you clearly sought out those presentations that would lead to the desired outcome. There are numerous accounts that continually support the Biblical record. In all the presentations I have read or heard that purported the debunk the Biblical claims, the language and intent of the author(s) was clear and it was not unbiased. That which questioned their conclusions, also evidence, is strictly avoided. So yes, you decided not to believe and found support for that decision. And you are right, you did not wake up one day after many days of pursuing evidence for a decision to dump the faith, and decide. It came on gradually same as anyone comes to believe something. They might believe the truth or they might believe a lie, but it is a path of MANY choices that lead to the final outcome.

And by the way, your experience is merely anecdotal, you realize. It is of no more vaildity that 1213 and I experiencing having God answer so many requests that it was overwhelming. There is no reason for the sane man to accept your personal experience than ours. Just because yours is abandoning a faith does not mean it is more plausible.

[benchwarmer]

People don't just decide, even when currently convinced of something, to simply believe the opposite.

They certainly do. The alcoholic convinces himself that one drink won't hurt.

Thank you, you just proved my point. The alcoholic is convinced one drink won't hurt and that's what they believe.

They are wrong, but that's got nothing to do with belief. People believe wrong things all the time.

It doesn't matter how the convincing happens, the point is that they become convinced and that drives their belief.

I changed my beliefs about Christianity. It didn't happen because I just woke up one day and thought "You know what, it's Monday and I don't believe in the stories in the Bible anymore even though I find them convincing."

This seems to be the apologetic that some would like to claim happens so that they can blame peoples "simple choice to not believe" when we all know that's not how it works.

How it works is one starts feeding oneself the input that will lead to the desired conclusion.

Wrong, yet again.

You know what I fed myself? The Bible. Yup, that's what I was reading daily when I starting piecing together all the problems.

I realize that believers want to proclaim that people only lose their faith because the read the 'wrong' things or listened to the 'wrong' people, but that cuts both ways. I could just as easily, using your same logic and baseless claim, accuse believers of just that. They only feed themselves things that will help them maintain their current belief.

You make it seem like people who deconverted had that in mind first, then went looking for things to make that happen. Sorry, it doesn't work that way regardless of how much you might like it to.

I stopped believing because I discovered convincing (to me) evidence that rendered the stories false. At that point my belief changed. I didn't just make a 'will power' decision. I became convinced of a new truth and my beliefs followed.

Ah, see. You feed yourself "evidence" that the accounts are false.

Nope, wrong again. You sure seem to like to jump to wrong conclusions.

I discovered through my research something called the Synoptic Problem. I had never heard of it and certainly didn't believe anything about it until it crossed my path (I don't remember exactly where/when I first read about it).

The nice thing is that I can confirm the information myself by, you guessed it, reading the Bible. That darn Bible seems to be the center of all the problems

So, one of the many, many problems I heard about I was able to confirm myself by simply reading the Bible. I guess in a way you are right. People should maybe stop reading that thing and feeding themselves all that bad information.

[POI]

Mae there is forgiveness for some for the times we did not live up to that standard.

POI Then this falls in line with A) (un)conditional grace. In this case specifically, conditional grace. Which-is-to-mean, if you try hard enough, he forgives some, (while still falling short of the "stated" criteria). Which then begs the next question, how much is one allowed to slip up, or fall short of loving all as much as yourself? Just think about how many times you have envisioned vengeance or ill-will upon others? Or are simply, on a regular basis, indifferent to others? I'd imagine, for all, it is immeasurable.

Mae When Jesus was asked the above question you ask, he gave quite different answers to different men. You insist on one answer for all and it has to be one of the above.

POI THE CRITERIA is either met, or it is not. But it seems there is no set criteria, if the answer encompasses answer A).

Mae What moves my heart for you, is that you seem to long for the very thing you do not allow in your answers. You still long for some kind of personal touch from Him and yet that is not an option you offer as an answer.

POI I appreciate the sentiment. The objective of this thread is to demonstrate that even if you are a true-blue follower, the path is not clarified. This is why the answers given, by all of you, differ.

[POI]

It seems to me that you don't understand my point. There is nothing that prevents me other than myself, that is why it can't be said i couldn't do it. I just don't do it, because I don't want to do so, it is against my will.

To say you can make yourself believe in Santa Claus is a flat out lie. You cannot unless you really believe. The only way you can 'make' yourself believe, is if you are truly convinced. So sure, you can <tell> me you believe, but you do not really believe a Santa Claus exists.

It is said: "justifies those who have faith in Jesus". Justifies means, person is counted righteous.

Yes, 'righteousness' through faith. Answer B).

Which means, those who have faith in Jesus are counted righteous. It does not mean that the faith makes person righteous. The faith is only a result of that person is righteous. That person has faith, is a sign of that person is righteous. Therefore one can be counted righteous, justified, if he has faith.

Negative. Your works fall short. Jesus's don't fall short. Jesus becomes your proxy, through your faith in him. Read Romans 3 again, until you get it. (i.e.):

22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

[Mae von H]

People don't just decide, even when currently convinced of something, to simply believe the opposite.

They certainly do. The alcoholic convinces himself that one drink won't hurt.

Thank you, you just proved my point. The alcoholic is convinced one drink won't hurt and that's what they believe.

No, you said people don’t convince themselves of what they know isn’t true. You are wrong. They do.

They are wrong, but that's got nothing to do with belief. People believe wrong things all the time.

It’s everything to do with belief. People choose to believe lies.

It doesn't matter how the convincing happens, the point is that they become convinced and that drives their belief.

Yes, they choose this.

I changed my beliefs about Christianity. It didn't happen because I just woke up one day and thought "You know what, it's Monday and I don't believe in the stories in the Bible anymore even though I find them convincing."

This seems to be the apologetic that some would like to claim happens so that they can blame peoples "simple choice to not believe" when we all know that's not how it works.

How it works is one starts feeding oneself the input that will lead to the desired conclusion.

Wrong, yet again.

You know what I fed myself? The Bible. Yup, that's what I was reading daily when I starting piecing together all the problems.

So you chose not to believe.

I realize that believers want to proclaim that people only lose their faith because the read the 'wrong' things or listened to the 'wrong' people, but that cuts both ways. I could just as easily, using your same logic and baseless claim, accuse believers of just that. They only feed themselves things that will help them maintain their current belief.

That is true as well, except when one also lives the teaching Jesus gave, one comes to know the truth as Jesus says one would. We prove what we read is true.

You make it seem like people who deconverted had that in mind first, then went looking for things to make that happen. Sorry, it doesn't work that way regardless of how much you might like it to.

For many it does.

I stopped believing because I discovered convincing (to me) evidence that rendered the stories false. At that point my belief changed. I didn't just make a 'will power' decision. I became convinced of a new truth and my beliefs followed.

Ah, see. You feed yourself "evidence" that the accounts are false.

Nope, wrong again. You sure seem to like to jump to wrong conclusions.

Nope. It is the slow and clear road to that conclusion…no jump.

I discovered through my research something called the Synoptic Problem. I had never heard of it and certainly didn't believe anything about it until it crossed my path (I don't remember exactly where/when I first read about it).

Which Bible passage is that discussed?? You see, you didn’t “just read the Bible” like you said.

The nice thing is that I can confirm the information myself by, you guessed it, reading the Bible. That darn Bible seems to be the center of all the problems

Nope. No Bible verse introduced a “Synoptic Problem.”

So, one of the many, many problems I heard about I was able to confirm myself by simply reading the Bible. I guess in a way you are right. People should maybe stop reading that thing and feeding themselves all that bad information.

Ah, but you’ve revealed you didn’t just “read the Bible.” But truthfully, if one doesn’t DO what it says, reading won’t help.