Can we debate respectfully?

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Sherlock Holmes

Can we debate respectfully?

Post #1

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

I've listened to this debate several times over the years, it was broadcast by the BBC on radio a great many years ago.

Its a debate on the existence of God between two very respected intellectuals, Bertrand Russel and Frederick Copleston. Each of these men wrote a comprehensive history of philosophy and were well versed in philosophy, logic, history and so on, they were well matched.

What is striking is that neither party ever gets personal, they focus entirely on their opponents arguments, no petty insinuating, snide remarks or disparaging words.

Fr. Frederick C. Copleston vs Bertrand Russell

If you prefer to skip the introductions and go right to the debate use this link.

Fr. Frederick C. Copleston vs Bertrand Russell - No Intro

So the question - why do so many debates in the Science and Religion area often end up getting personal and stray away from the pure hard logic of the topic itself?

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #31

Post by JoeyKnothead »

otseng wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:59 pm
Inquirer wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:52 pm I came back to post my thoughts about this with the hope it might be of some value. Perhaps it would be better to warn a violator say twice and then ban them from participating in the thread for some interval rather than shutting down the thread for everyone else, if the system supports such a capability...
Honestly, it's not really contributing any value. If people are really interested in promoting the standards of the forum, they should first uphold the rules themselves, not break the rules themselves and complain about others breaking the rules.
I must have done that six or seven times yet no comments were ever made about those violating posts so they continued.
You did that all in one shot prior to you being asked to be deleted. And it was on top of many other open violations that were reported on other posters in the thread. What else can be done besides shutting down the thread? Continue to give each person a comment/warning, when I've already issued the following in the thread?

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1079767&hi ... g#p1079767
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1079554&hi ... g#p1079554
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1079543&hi ... g#p1079543
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1079401&hi ... g#p1079401
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1079170&hi ... g#p1079170
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1079105&hi ... g#p1079105
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1078897&hi ... g#p1078897
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1078896&hi ... g#p1078896
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1071756&hi ... g#p1071756
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1071191&hi ... g#p1071191
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1070581&hi ... g#p1070581
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1070414&hi ... g#p1070414
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1069814&hi ... g#p1069814

How many comments and warnings do I need to give before anybody heeds any of them?
I'm proof that otseng is a patient and forgiving sort.

Don't let anyone try to tell it otherwise.

At some point though, he (and mods) hafta draw a line.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #32

Post by Inquirer »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:33 pm
otseng wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:59 pm
Inquirer wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:52 pm I came back to post my thoughts about this with the hope it might be of some value. Perhaps it would be better to warn a violator say twice and then ban them from participating in the thread for some interval rather than shutting down the thread for everyone else, if the system supports such a capability...
Honestly, it's not really contributing any value. If people are really interested in promoting the standards of the forum, they should first uphold the rules themselves, not break the rules themselves and complain about others breaking the rules.
I must have done that six or seven times yet no comments were ever made about those violating posts so they continued.
You did that all in one shot prior to you being asked to be deleted. And it was on top of many other open violations that were reported on other posters in the thread. What else can be done besides shutting down the thread? Continue to give each person a comment/warning, when I've already issued the following in the thread?

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1079767&hi ... g#p1079767
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1079554&hi ... g#p1079554
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1079543&hi ... g#p1079543
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1079401&hi ... g#p1079401
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1079170&hi ... g#p1079170
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1079105&hi ... g#p1079105
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1078897&hi ... g#p1078897
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1078896&hi ... g#p1078896
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1071756&hi ... g#p1071756
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1071191&hi ... g#p1071191
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1070581&hi ... g#p1070581
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1070414&hi ... g#p1070414
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1069814&hi ... g#p1069814

How many comments and warnings do I need to give before anybody heeds any of them?
I'm proof that otseng is a patient and forgiving sort.

Don't let anyone try to tell it otherwise.

At some point though, he (and mods) hafta draw a line.
I concur, Oliver has been gracious and polite at all times.

I'm taking a step away from here for now, I'd like to resume some of the discussions too in the future, but for now I'm leaving the site alone for a time.

Regards.

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #33

Post by Clownboat »

Inquirer wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:52 pm
otseng wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:27 pm
Inquirer wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:03 pm This is what repeated tolerance of uncivil, disparaging posts can do - encourage people to leave the forum.
Rule violations are not tolerated, that's why the thread was shut down after numerous moderator interventions which seemed to have no effect.

But, my basic question is why are you coming back if you were so exasperated to have your account deleted?
I came back to post my thoughts about this with the hope it might be of some value. Perhaps it would be better to warn a violator say twice and then ban them from participating in the thread for some interval rather than shutting down the thread for everyone else, if the system supports such a capability...

I was suspended for a month and I did commit violations I accept that and like to think I respected that when my suspension was over, during my recent posting in the 6 Day thread I made an effort to avoid personal sniping despite provocations. I reported what I felt was a violation/insult to the moderators. I must have done that six or seven times yet no comments were ever made about those violating posts so they continued. It seems that reporting violations ultimately leads to a thread being shutdown so why bother even reporting them if that's the policy, why punish all the participants of a thread? why not just deal with the violator specifically as was done with me?
Just an observation, but I have been on this forum for over 14 years and can only recall reporting one post.
I get the impression that some folks see being a victim or being persecuted as some sort of game.

As a believer, my church told me that if we were not being persecuted, we were not being good Christians. Perhaps that is why some believers come to this forum, to get them their perceived persecution so they can feel like they are doing Christianity correctly? 8-[
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #34

Post by Inquirer »

Clownboat wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:01 pm
Inquirer wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:52 pm
otseng wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:27 pm
Inquirer wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:03 pm This is what repeated tolerance of uncivil, disparaging posts can do - encourage people to leave the forum.
Rule violations are not tolerated, that's why the thread was shut down after numerous moderator interventions which seemed to have no effect.

But, my basic question is why are you coming back if you were so exasperated to have your account deleted?
I came back to post my thoughts about this with the hope it might be of some value. Perhaps it would be better to warn a violator say twice and then ban them from participating in the thread for some interval rather than shutting down the thread for everyone else, if the system supports such a capability...

I was suspended for a month and I did commit violations I accept that and like to think I respected that when my suspension was over, during my recent posting in the 6 Day thread I made an effort to avoid personal sniping despite provocations. I reported what I felt was a violation/insult to the moderators. I must have done that six or seven times yet no comments were ever made about those violating posts so they continued. It seems that reporting violations ultimately leads to a thread being shutdown so why bother even reporting them if that's the policy, why punish all the participants of a thread? why not just deal with the violator specifically as was done with me?
Just an observation, but I have been on this forum for over 14 years and can only recall reporting one post.
I get the impression that some folks see being a victim or being persecuted as some sort of game.

As a believer, my church told me that if we were not being persecuted, we were not being good Christians. Perhaps that is why some believers come to this forum, to get them their perceived persecution so they can feel like they are doing Christianity correctly? 8-[
As a Christian I think that empathy is vital to our character development.

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #35

Post by Clownboat »

Inquirer wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:37 pm
Clownboat wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:01 pm
Inquirer wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:52 pm
otseng wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:27 pm
Inquirer wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:03 pm This is what repeated tolerance of uncivil, disparaging posts can do - encourage people to leave the forum.
Rule violations are not tolerated, that's why the thread was shut down after numerous moderator interventions which seemed to have no effect.

But, my basic question is why are you coming back if you were so exasperated to have your account deleted?
I came back to post my thoughts about this with the hope it might be of some value. Perhaps it would be better to warn a violator say twice and then ban them from participating in the thread for some interval rather than shutting down the thread for everyone else, if the system supports such a capability...

I was suspended for a month and I did commit violations I accept that and like to think I respected that when my suspension was over, during my recent posting in the 6 Day thread I made an effort to avoid personal sniping despite provocations. I reported what I felt was a violation/insult to the moderators. I must have done that six or seven times yet no comments were ever made about those violating posts so they continued. It seems that reporting violations ultimately leads to a thread being shutdown so why bother even reporting them if that's the policy, why punish all the participants of a thread? why not just deal with the violator specifically as was done with me?
Just an observation, but I have been on this forum for over 14 years and can only recall reporting one post.
I get the impression that some folks see being a victim or being persecuted as some sort of game.

As a believer, my church told me that if we were not being persecuted, we were not being good Christians. Perhaps that is why some believers come to this forum, to get them their perceived persecution so they can feel like they are doing Christianity correctly? 8-[
As a Christian I think that empathy is vital to our character development.
As someone that is no longer a Christian, I also think that empathy is vital to our character development. You error in thinking that Christianity has anything to do with such thinking though, assuming that is why you mention 'As a Christian' above. These kinds of teachings do help to foster Us vs Them thinking if someone is going to pretend you have to be part of some group in order to value empathy for example.

Have you ever attended a church that claimed that if you are not being persecuted, you are not being good Christian?
I did and I can see how such teachings could create persecution complexes. Want to consider yourself (generic) a good Christian, make sure you can identify some persecution in your life.

It is hard to debate respectfully when there are those seeking to 'see' persecution in their lives. So you disagree?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #36

Post by Inquirer »

Clownboat wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:15 pm
Inquirer wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:37 pm
Clownboat wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:01 pm
Inquirer wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:52 pm
otseng wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:27 pm
Inquirer wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:03 pm This is what repeated tolerance of uncivil, disparaging posts can do - encourage people to leave the forum.
Rule violations are not tolerated, that's why the thread was shut down after numerous moderator interventions which seemed to have no effect.

But, my basic question is why are you coming back if you were so exasperated to have your account deleted?
I came back to post my thoughts about this with the hope it might be of some value. Perhaps it would be better to warn a violator say twice and then ban them from participating in the thread for some interval rather than shutting down the thread for everyone else, if the system supports such a capability...

I was suspended for a month and I did commit violations I accept that and like to think I respected that when my suspension was over, during my recent posting in the 6 Day thread I made an effort to avoid personal sniping despite provocations. I reported what I felt was a violation/insult to the moderators. I must have done that six or seven times yet no comments were ever made about those violating posts so they continued. It seems that reporting violations ultimately leads to a thread being shutdown so why bother even reporting them if that's the policy, why punish all the participants of a thread? why not just deal with the violator specifically as was done with me?
Just an observation, but I have been on this forum for over 14 years and can only recall reporting one post.
I get the impression that some folks see being a victim or being persecuted as some sort of game.

As a believer, my church told me that if we were not being persecuted, we were not being good Christians. Perhaps that is why some believers come to this forum, to get them their perceived persecution so they can feel like they are doing Christianity correctly? 8-[
As a Christian I think that empathy is vital to our character development.
As someone that is no longer a Christian, I also think that empathy is vital to our character development. You error in thinking that Christianity has anything to do with such thinking though, assuming that is why you mention 'As a Christian' above. These kinds of teachings do help to foster Us vs Them thinking if someone is going to pretend you have to be part of some group in order to value empathy for example.

Have you ever attended a church that claimed that if you are not being persecuted, you are not being good Christian?
I did and I can see how such teachings could create persecution complexes. Want to consider yourself (generic) a good Christian, make sure you can identify some persecution in your life.

It is hard to debate respectfully when there are those seeking to 'see' persecution in their lives. So you disagree?
Your personal opinion of my character and motives are fascinating but completely irrelevant, it is this kind of personal probing and insinuating about someone's character that leads to the very thing this thread is about. Why do some participants always want to dwell on the personality of the person with whose arguments they disagree? rather than simply arguing their case? sticking to the subject rather than focusing on the person arguing the subject.

Would we ever evaluate the truth of some mathematical theorem on the basis of the proponents personality, beliefs, sexual orientation, race, religious views and so on? I hope not!

"This theorem must be wrong because people like you who [insert attributes of choice] never understand the real basis of the problem".

I see a lot of arguments like that posted in this forum, but I won't mention any names.
Last edited by Inquirer on Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:59 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #37

Post by Inquirer »

Clownboat wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:15 pm Have you ever attended a church that claimed that if you are not being persecuted, you are not being good Christian?
I did and I can see how such teachings could create persecution complexes. Want to consider yourself (generic) a good Christian, make sure you can identify some persecution in your life.

It is hard to debate respectfully when there are those seeking to 'see' persecution in their lives. So you disagree?
Incidentally, for your information, I do not attend "church" and never have. There's nothing "hard" about debating respectfully, it is just a matter of humility, honesty and sticking to the arguments rather then the people making those arguments.

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #38

Post by Clownboat »

Inquirer wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:20 pm Your personal opinion of my character and motives are fascinating but completely irrelevant, it is this kind of personal probing and insinuating about someone's character that leads to the very thing this thread is about.

Now we are on to something! In the post (#35) you quoted, please copy/paste where I commented on your character and motives. I think we would all benefit from seeing just how this leads to not being able to debate respectfully.
Why do some participants always want to dwell on the personality of the person with whose arguments they disagree?
Nonsensical question as the brush is way too broad. Which 'some' do you mean and how would we know their motives on the matter?
(Why do some participants) rather than simply arguing their case?

How is it that you would expect me to know the minds of others? I could speculate, but it would be generic and not very meaningful.
(Why do some participants) sticking to the subject rather than focusing on the person arguing the subject.
How is it that you would expect me to know the minds of others? I could speculate, but it would be generic and not very meaningful.
Would we ever evaluate the truth of some mathematical theorem on the basis of the proponents personality, beliefs, sexual orientation, race, religious views and so on? I hope not!
Hey! Over here! Come back!
I would hope not as well, but I'm really starting to get confused as to whom you are debating with.
"This theorem must be wrong because people like you who [insert attributes of choice] never understand the real basis of the problem".
What theorem do you refer to?
I see a lot of arguments like that posted in this forum, but I won't mention any names.
Ok? What is the purpose of posting this?

At the risk of you taking this as a personal attack that is disrespectfull, I still have to ask: What was the purpose of your post? The questions are nonsensical are they not? If not, please assist me in how I would provide the answers to the questions you ask. Specifically, how am I to know the mind of others (which would be required in order to answer your questions).
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #39

Post by Inquirer »

Clownboat wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:03 pm
Inquirer wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:20 pm Your personal opinion of my character and motives are fascinating but completely irrelevant, it is this kind of personal probing and insinuating about someone's character that leads to the very thing this thread is about.

Now we are on to something! In the post (#35) you quoted, please copy/paste where I commented on your character and motives. I think we would all benefit from seeing just how this leads to not being able to debate respectfully.
Why do some participants always want to dwell on the personality of the person with whose arguments they disagree?
Nonsensical question as the brush is way too broad. Which 'some' do you mean and how would we know their motives on the matter?
(Why do some participants) rather than simply arguing their case?

How is it that you would expect me to know the minds of others? I could speculate, but it would be generic and not very meaningful.
(Why do some participants) sticking to the subject rather than focusing on the person arguing the subject.
How is it that you would expect me to know the minds of others? I could speculate, but it would be generic and not very meaningful.
Would we ever evaluate the truth of some mathematical theorem on the basis of the proponents personality, beliefs, sexual orientation, race, religious views and so on? I hope not!
Hey! Over here! Come back!
I would hope not as well, but I'm really starting to get confused as to whom you are debating with.
"This theorem must be wrong because people like you who [insert attributes of choice] never understand the real basis of the problem".
What theorem do you refer to?
I see a lot of arguments like that posted in this forum, but I won't mention any names.
Ok? What is the purpose of posting this?

At the risk of you taking this as a personal attack that is disrespectfull, I still have to ask: What was the purpose of your post? The questions are nonsensical are they not? If not, please assist me in how I would provide the answers to the questions you ask. Specifically, how am I to know the mind of others (which would be required in order to answer your questions).
They were rhetorical, stated to serve as examples of what I see. But enough about me.

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #40

Post by Clownboat »

Inquirer wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:35 pm
Clownboat wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:15 pm Have you ever attended a church that claimed that if you are not being persecuted, you are not being good Christian?
I did and I can see how such teachings could create persecution complexes. Want to consider yourself (generic) a good Christian, make sure you can identify some persecution in your life.

It is hard to debate respectfully when there are those seeking to 'see' persecution in their lives. Do you disagree?
Incidentally, for your information, I do not attend "church" and never have. There's nothing "hard" about debating respectfully, it is just a matter of humility, honesty and sticking to the arguments rather then the people making those arguments.
The fact that you don't attend a church has nothing to do with the point I made.
There are churches that claim if you are not being persecuted, you are not being a good Christian. I attended one myself for over a decade.

I then stated and asked:
"I can see how such teachings could create persecution complexes. Want to consider yourself (generic) a good Christian, make sure you can identify some persecution in your life.

It is hard to debate respectfully when there are those seeking to 'see' persecution in their lives. Do you disagree?"


Not one word on whether or not you agree or disagree. Hmmm.....
Do you find it respectable for people to offer answers when debate questions are posed to them?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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