Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

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Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

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Post by Diogenes »

In clinical practice, no clear guidelines exist to distinguish between "normal" religious beliefs and "pathological" religious delusions. Historically, psychiatrists such as Freud have suggested that all religious beliefs are delusional, while the current DSM-IV definition of delusion exempts religious doctrine from pathology altogether. ....
Religious beliefs and delusions alike can arise from neurologic lesions and anomalous experiences, suggesting that at least some religious beliefs can be pathological. Religious beliefs exist outside of the scientific domain; therefore they can be easily labeled delusional from a rational perspective.....
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15990520/
The question for debate is stated in the title, Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?
A subordinate question: Should we distinguish between a learned belief in supernatural phenomena and those who believe and attribute their beliefs to personal experience... and how could we tell?
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

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Post by Inquirer »

Jose Fly wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:34 pm
Inquirer wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:12 pm How do you differentiate between there being no evidence existing and you not being aware of evidence that exists? How can you tell the difference between these two possibilities?
I look. Also, given the subject at hand (900 year old people) one would think if there was actually evidence of such a thing, it would be pretty well known.

It's no different than 90 foot tall loggers in the American west. If there were evidence for that, I'm pretty sure we'd all know about it.
Well "pretty well known" and "pretty sure" are fine, but that's not really what you said Jose - you wrote "there is no evidence (outside of stories) of people living 900 years".

So you are contradicting yourself - saying "there is no evidence" (an objective claim) does not mean the same thing as "I'm pretty sure there's no evidence" (a subjective claim).
Jose Fly wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:34 pm
I put it to you that you cannot so no, the "point" does not stand at all, it is conjecture, speculation, belief and that - rationally - can only lead to one conclusion Jose - you simply do not know if some individuals lived to an age of 900+ years.
Again, the fact remains that no one has presented any evidence (outside of stories) of 900 year old people. If you have some, present it. Otherwise all this is just an attempt to divert from that reality.
No, no, no - you're doing it again, conflating your subjective opinion with objective truth. Someone may well have presented additional evidence, there might well be evidence lying on some dusty museum shelf locked away for centuries, you have no idea if there is or isn't.
Jose Fly wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:34 pm
All you can do is be disinclined in believing the Biblical record, I can respect such a view, it is a rational view, the claim that people lived 900+ years is not something I'd expect anyone to accept without some good reason, I understand and accept that view.
I can safely conclude that the stories of 900 year old people are extremely unlikely to be true, just as I can conclude that the stories of 90 foot loggers in the American west are extremely unlikely to be true.
But that is not your view is it...
What specifically are you referring to?
Your initial claims of certainty rather than uncertainty.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #152

Post by Jose Fly »

Inquirer wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:43 pm Well "pretty well known" and "pretty sure" are fine, but that's not really what you said Jose - you wrote "there is no evidence (outside of stories) of people living 900 years".

So you are contradicting yourself - saying "there is no evidence" (an objective claim) does not mean the same thing as "I'm pretty sure there's no evidence" (a subjective claim).

No, no, no - you're doing it again, conflating your subjective opinion with objective truth. Someone may well have presented additional evidence, there might well be evidence lying on some dusty museum shelf locked away for centuries, you have no idea if there is or isn't.

Your initial claims of certainty rather than uncertainty.
Is this all you've got? We're now down to the point where you're going to quibble over verbiage?

The fact remains, you have not presented any evidence of 900 year old people. No one has presented evidence for the existence of 900 year old people. No matter where I look, I cannot find any evidence of 900 year old people. The only, singular reason for even believing such a thing are stories.

Thus, just like the idea of 90 foot tall loggers in the American west, it is reasonable to conclude that 900 year old people did not exist. It is also reasonable to view those who do believe in 900 year old people or 90 foot tall loggers as at least somewhat delusional.

If your counter argument to that is nothing more than an appeal to absolute knowledge ("Yeah, but you can't say those things with 100% absolute certainty"), I'll note that that's true for pretty much everything in the past. Thus, your counter-argument is meaningless.

If you have nothing more to add, I think we're done.
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #153

Post by Inquirer »

Jose Fly wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:56 pm
Inquirer wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:43 pm Well "pretty well known" and "pretty sure" are fine, but that's not really what you said Jose - you wrote "there is no evidence (outside of stories) of people living 900 years".

So you are contradicting yourself - saying "there is no evidence" (an objective claim) does not mean the same thing as "I'm pretty sure there's no evidence" (a subjective claim).

No, no, no - you're doing it again, conflating your subjective opinion with objective truth. Someone may well have presented additional evidence, there might well be evidence lying on some dusty museum shelf locked away for centuries, you have no idea if there is or isn't.

Your initial claims of certainty rather than uncertainty.
Is this all you've got? We're now down to the point where you're going to quibble over verbiage?
Its all I need to show that you are making claims you cannot substantiate. If an opponent in a debate has poor reasoning then I will point that out.
Jose Fly wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:56 pm The fact remains, you have not presented any evidence of 900 year old people.
Yes I have, for example this post.
Jose Fly wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:56 pm No one has presented evidence for the existence of 900 year old people.
No matter where I look, I cannot find any evidence of 900 year old people.
I did present evidence, historic records stating precisely that. That you cannot find this does not mean it isn't there.
Jose Fly wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:56 pm The only, singular reason for even believing such a thing are stories.
That might be true, but its true of a great deal of historic claims, for example Spartacus leading a slave revolt, nothing but stories.
Jose Fly wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:56 pm Thus, just like the idea of 90 foot tall loggers in the American west, it is reasonable to conclude that 900 year old people did not exist. It is also reasonable to view those who do believe in 900 year old people or 90 foot tall loggers as at least somewhat delusional.

If your counter argument to that is nothing more than an appeal to absolute knowledge ("Yeah, but you can't say those things with 100% absolute certainty"), I'll note that that's true for pretty much everything in the past. Thus, your counter-argument is meaningless.

If you have nothing more to add, I think we're done.
People have opinions, we all do, so long as we don't begin to confuse things we believe are true as being absolutely true, we're on solid ground; one doesn't want to warp a personal belief into a delusion.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #154

Post by Jose Fly »

Inquirer wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:12 pm Its all I need to show that you are making claims you cannot substantiate.
My claim is that, as it stands, there is no evidence (other than stories) for 900 year old people. The fact that no one has presented evidence for such people (other than stories) substantiates that claim.
Yes I have, for example this post.

I did present evidence, historic records stating precisely that. That you cannot find this does not mean it isn't there.
Again, try to keep up. I've repeatedly acknowledged (by stating outright) that the Bible contains stories of 900 year old people.
That might be true, but its true of a great deal of historic claims, for example Spartacus leading a slave revolt, nothing but stories.
Do you acknowledge that there are important differences between stories of things like slave revolts, and stories of 900 year old and 90 foot tall people?
People have opinions, we all do, so long as we don't begin to confuse things we believe are true as being absolutely true, we're on solid ground; one doesn't want to warp a personal belief into a delusion.
Again, your appeal to absolute certainty is noted.
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

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Post by Inquirer »

Jose Fly wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:26 pm
Inquirer wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:12 pm Its all I need to show that you are making claims you cannot substantiate.
My claim is that, as it stands, there is no evidence (other than stories) for 900 year old people. The fact that no one has presented evidence for such people (other than stories) substantiates that claim.
Yes I have, for example this post.

I did present evidence, historic records stating precisely that. That you cannot find this does not mean it isn't there.
Again, try to keep up. I've repeatedly acknowledged (by stating outright) that the Bible contains stories of 900 year old people.
That might be true, but its true of a great deal of historic claims, for example Spartacus leading a slave revolt, nothing but stories.
Do you acknowledge that there are important differences between stories of things like slave revolts, and stories of 900 year old and 90 foot tall people?
People have opinions, we all do, so long as we don't begin to confuse things we believe are true as being absolutely true, we're on solid ground; one doesn't want to warp a personal belief into a delusion.
Again, your appeal to absolute certainty is noted.
You keep chopping and changing, now you say "there is no evidence (other than stories) for 900 year old people" but there might be undiscovered evidence somewhere Jose, stop making claims of absolute certainty when you cannot support them with evidence, you will get pulled up in a debate when you do that.

Now, you cannot keep characterizing the Bible as "stories" it contains a great deal of history, much of that substantiated by other written sources as well as archeological finds, no serious scholar of ancient history of the middle east that I've ever encountered refers to the Bible as "stories".

As to your last question, yes there are differences but what you mean by "important differences" I don't know because you've never mentioned this before.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #156

Post by Jose Fly »

Inquirer wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:47 pm You keep chopping and changing, now you say "there is no evidence (other than stories) for 900 year old people" but there might be undiscovered evidence somewhere Jose, stop making claims of absolute certainty when you cannot support them with evidence, you will get pulled up in a debate when you do that.

Now, you cannot keep characterizing the Bible as "stories" it contains a great deal of history, much of that substantiated by other written sources as well as archeological finds, no serious scholar of ancient history of the middle east that I've ever encountered refers to the Bible as "stories".
So again, your rebuttal consists of 1) appealing to absolute certainty, and 2) stories in the Bible.

As I said, if that's all you have then we are done.
As to your last question, yes there are differences but what you mean by "important differences" I don't know because you've never mentioned this before.
Slave revolts are not an unusual occurrence and are very much within the realm of our observed reality. There's nothing about them that would lead a person to doubt that they are possible.

900 year old and 90 foot tall people are most definitely unusual and are not within the realm of our observed reality. There is no indication that such things are even possible for H. sapiens, which is solid justification for doubting stories about such people.

Do you disagree?
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #157

Post by Inquirer »

Jose Fly wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:06 pm
Inquirer wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:47 pm You keep chopping and changing, now you say "there is no evidence (other than stories) for 900 year old people" but there might be undiscovered evidence somewhere Jose, stop making claims of absolute certainty when you cannot support them with evidence, you will get pulled up in a debate when you do that.

Now, you cannot keep characterizing the Bible as "stories" it contains a great deal of history, much of that substantiated by other written sources as well as archeological finds, no serious scholar of ancient history of the middle east that I've ever encountered refers to the Bible as "stories".
So again, your rebuttal consists of 1) appealing to absolute certainty, and 2) stories in the Bible.
Not at all, my refutation (which is what it actually is) consists of repeated exposure of logical flaws in your reasoning.
Jose Fly wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:06 pm As I said, if that's all you have then we are done.
Yes, that's all I have, it's also all I need, refuting your claims really doesn't take much effort.
Jose Fly wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:06 pm
As to your last question, yes there are differences but what you mean by "important differences" I don't know because you've never mentioned this before.
Slave revolts are not an unusual occurrence and are very much within the realm of our observed reality. There's nothing about them that would lead a person to doubt that they are possible.

900 year old and 90 foot tall people are most definitely unusual and are not within the realm of our observed reality. There is no indication that such things are even possible for H. sapiens, which is solid justification for doubting stories about such people.

Do you disagree?
How did you establish that slave revolts were "not unusual" in ancient Rome? Can you provide a source for this claim? I mean you weren't there after all were you. It isn't that slave revolts might not be possible, it is whether the record of Spartacus is trustworthy, really did occur. Are you of the opinion that we can believe any story that seems to be possible? What about Great Expectations, that's surely possible but is it therefore true?

Are you now claiming it is scientifically impossible for any person ever, to live to 900 years old? that you can prove this to be materially impossible?

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

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Post by Jose Fly »

Inquirer wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:26 pm Not at all, my refutation (which is what it actually is) consists of repeated exposure of logical flaws in your reasoning.

Yes, that's all I have
Contradiction noted.
How did you establish that slave revolts were "not unusual" in ancient Rome?
Slave revolts are not unusual occurrences in our human experience. Do you dispute that?
Are you of the opinion that we can believe any story that seems to be possible?
No.
Are you now claiming it is scientifically impossible for any person ever, to live to 900 years old? that you can prove this to be materially impossible?
Again, science does not deal in proof. You've been told this countless times by multiple people.

And you did not answer my question. To repeat, 900 year old and 90 foot tall people are most definitely unusual and are not within the realm of our observed reality. There is no indication that such things are even possible for H. sapiens, which is solid justification for doubting stories about such people.

Do you disagree?
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

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Post by Inquirer »

Jose Fly wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:33 pm
Inquirer wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:26 pm Not at all, my refutation (which is what it actually is) consists of repeated exposure of logical flaws in your reasoning.

Yes, that's all I have
Contradiction noted.
How did you establish that slave revolts were "not unusual" in ancient Rome?
Slave revolts are not unusual occurrences in our human experience. Do you dispute that?
So, no source, why am I not surprised.
Jose Fly wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:33 pm
Are you of the opinion that we can believe any story that seems to be possible?
No.
Are you now claiming it is scientifically impossible for any person ever, to live to 900 years old? that you can prove this to be materially impossible?
Again, science does not deal in proof. You've been told this countless times by multiple people.
I know, so we agree then, you have no proof of the claim, it could be rare, it could be very rare but rarity isn't the same as impossible. Unlikely, rare, events do sometimes occur which is why we have the term "rare" in our language.

Consider ball lightning, do you believe the stories about it or not? e.g.
The chronicle of Gervase of Canterbury, an English monk, contains what is possibly the earliest known reference to ball lightning, dated 7 June, 1195. He states, "A marvellous sign descended near London", consisting of a dense and dark cloud, emitting a white substance that grew into a spherical shape under the cloud, from which a fiery globe fell towards the river.
Do you believe that?
Jose Fly wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:33 pm And you did not answer my question. To repeat, 900 year old and 90 foot tall people are most definitely unusual and are not within the realm of our observed reality. There is no indication that such things are even possible for H. sapiens, which is solid justification for doubting stories about such people.

Do you disagree?
Do I disagree with "900 year old and 90 foot tall people are most definitely unusual" - No, I agree.
Do I disagree with "are not within the realm of our observed reality" - Yes, I disagree (There are claims in the Biblical record from people who observed it both OT and NT).
Do I disagree with "There is no indication that such things are even possible" - Yes, I disagree (There are claims in the Biblical record from people who observed it both OT and NT).

There are also records of animals living to over 250 years, do you believe that?

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

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Post by Jose Fly »

Inquirer wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:47 pm So, no source, why am I not surprised.
So you are disputing that slave revolts are not unusual occurrences in human experience. On what basis do you dispute it?
I know, so we agree then, you have no proof of the claim, it could be rare, it could be very rare but rarity isn't the same as impossible. Unlikely, rare, events do sometimes occur which is why we have the term "rare" in our language.
First, your appeal to absolute certainty is again noted.

Second, are you arguing that 900 year old and 90 feet tall people are possible and merely rare?
Consider ball lightning, do you believe the stories about it or not? e.g

The chronicle of Gervase of Canterbury, an English monk, contains what is possibly the earliest known reference to ball lightning, dated 7 June, 1195. He states, "A marvellous sign descended near London", consisting of a dense and dark cloud, emitting a white substance that grew into a spherical shape under the cloud, from which a fiery globe fell towards the river.
Do you believe that?
It's not something I've ever looked into.
Do I disagree with "900 year old and 90 foot tall people are most definitely unusual" - No, I agree.
Noted.
Do I disagree with "are not within the realm of our observed reality" - Yes, I disagree (There are claims in the Biblical record from people who observed it both OT and NT).
Noted.
Do I disagree with "There is no indication that such things are even possible" - Yes, I disagree (There are claims in the Biblical record from people who observed it both OT and NT).
Noted.
There are also records of animals living to over 250 years, do you believe that?
I don't know what you're referring to.
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