Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

[Diogenes]

In clinical practice, no clear guidelines exist to distinguish between "normal" religious beliefs and "pathological" religious delusions. Historically, psychiatrists such as Freud have suggested that all religious beliefs are delusional, while the current DSM-IV definition of delusion exempts religious doctrine from pathology altogether. ....
Religious beliefs and delusions alike can arise from neurologic lesions and anomalous experiences, suggesting that at least some religious beliefs can be pathological. Religious beliefs exist outside of the scientific domain; therefore they can be easily labeled delusional from a rational perspective.....

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15990520/
The question for debate is stated in the title, Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?
A subordinate question: Should we distinguish between a learned belief in supernatural phenomena and those who believe and attribute their beliefs to personal experience... and how could we tell?

[Inquirer]

So, no source, why am I not surprised.

So you are disputing that slave revolts are not unusual occurrences in human experience. On what basis do you dispute it?

Asking for a source for your claim is not disputing your claim. Its clear you have no source for the claim that slave rebellions in ancient Rome were not unusual occurrences else you'd simply provide it, that's what a scientifically trained person would do without any fuss, unless they had no source.

I know, so we agree then, you have no proof of the claim, it could be rare, it could be very rare but rarity isn't the same as impossible. Unlikely, rare, events do sometimes occur which is why we have the term "rare" in our language.

First, your appeal to absolute certainty is again noted.

Your much belated admission of uncertainty is appreciated.

Second, are you arguing that 900 year old and 90 feet tall people are possible and merely rare?

Anything is possible unless we have incontrovertible proof it is not.

Consider ball lightning, do you believe the stories about it or not? e.g

The chronicle of Gervase of Canterbury, an English monk, contains what is possibly the earliest known reference to ball lightning, dated 7 June, 1195. He states, "A marvellous sign descended near London", consisting of a dense and dark cloud, emitting a white substance that grew into a spherical shape under the cloud, from which a fiery globe fell towards the river.

Do you believe that?

It's not something I've ever looked into.

What is there to "look into"? It is a quote from a document written a thousand years ago, how could you verify the claim?

Do I disagree with "900 year old and 90 foot tall people are most definitely unusual" - No, I agree.

Noted.

Do I disagree with "are not within the realm of our observed reality" - Yes, I disagree (There are claims in the Biblical record from people who observed it both OT and NT).

Noted.

Do I disagree with "There is no indication that such things are even possible" - Yes, I disagree (There are claims in the Biblical record from people who observed it both OT and NT).

Noted.

There are also records of animals living to over 250 years, do you believe that?

I don't know what you're referring to.

You could have looked it up. There are tortoises, sharks and others reputed to have lived for over 250 years, do you accept that?

[Jose Fly]

Asking for a source for your claim is not disputing your claim.

Are you disputing that slave revolts are not uncommon in our human existence?

Its clear you have no source for the claim that slave rebellions in ancient Rome were not unusual occurrences

Again you are not paying attention to what you're replying to. I have been referring to slave revolts in the context of "human experience" throughout.

Your much belated admission of uncertainty is appreciated.

I made no such admission. Please debate ethically.

Second, are you arguing that 900 year old and 90 feet tall people are possible and merely rare?

Anything is possible unless we have incontrovertible proof it is not.

What do you believe we have incontrovertible proof of being impossible?

What is there to "look into"? It is a quote from a document written a thousand years ago, how could you verify the claim?

I would examine the subject of lightning and any scientific aspects of ball lightning.

There are tortoises, sharks and others reputed to have lived for over 250 years, do you accept that?

Given that we have seen, studied, and documented a 190 year old tortoise and sharks that are centuries old, yes.

[JoeyKnothead]

There are also records of animals living to over 250 years, do you believe that?

I don't know what you're referring to.

Some critters're reported, by scientists, to get pretty old...

https://www.livescience.com/longest-living-animals.html

This doesn't support 900 year old ages for humans though.

[Inquirer]

There are also records of animals living to over 250 years, do you believe that?

I don't know what you're referring to.

Some critters're reported, by scientists, to get pretty old...

https://www.livescience.com/longest-living-animals.html

This doesn't support 900 year old ages for humans though.

Aging is a disease, disease can be treated or even cured sometimes.

[Tcg]

There are also records of animals living to over 250 years, do you believe that?

I don't know what you're referring to.

Some critters're reported, by scientists, to get pretty old...

https://www.livescience.com/longest-living-animals.html

This doesn't support 900 year old ages for humans though.

Yeah, but the Bible says a bunch of people, well men of course, no record of the women, lived 900 or more years old. Trees live longer. Clams live long too, so you know, humans must have lived long too because we can't prove they didn't.


Tcg

[JoeyKnothead]

There are also records of animals living to over 250 years, do you believe that?

I don't know what you're referring to.

Some critters're reported, by scientists, to get pretty old...

https://www.livescience.com/longest-living-animals.html

This doesn't support 900 year old ages for humans though.

Aging is a disease, disease can be treated or even cured sometimes.

Aging ain't it near the problem as the dying.

Except, I reckon, for one random Jew in the long ago days.

While it may be difficult to prove folks can't live to be 900, I'd give a part ownership in a wheelbarrow to anyone who can show someone actually did.

[Jose Fly]

There are also records of animals living to over 250 years, do you believe that?

I don't know what you're referring to.

Some critters're reported, by scientists, to get pretty old...

https://www.livescience.com/longest-living-animals.html

Yep, pretty cool. But with certain types of people, you can't ever assume to know what they're talking about until they specify.

This doesn't support 900 year old ages for humans though.

Nothing does, except stories in the OT. And that's what this whole thing boils down to....Inquirer believes that in the past, people lived to be 900 years old because that's what the OT describes and he believes the OT.

It's no different than a Mormon who believes Joseph Smith really was visited by an angel who directed him to golden plates, or Muslims who believe Muhammad ascended into the heavens from the rock under the dome, or any number of extraordinary claims from various religions.

In each of those cases believers accept the stories as true because they see the associated holy books as trustworthy.

The question is, are such beliefs "delusional"? I think they are (although not to a level that would indicate psychosis). What I've always found fascinating is how often whether or not a belief in something extraordinary is "delusional" is apparently determined by the number of people who believe it. When a group of 10 people believe their leader is some sort of divine entity who performs miracles, regularly visits heaven, and such we have no problem concluding that they've been duped and are at least somewhat delusional. But if 10,000 people believe the same thing, we call it "religion" and think that referring to them as "delusional" is hateful and disrespectful.

We certainly are fascinating creatures.

[JoeyKnothead]

There are also records of animals living to over 250 years, do you believe that?

I don't know what you're referring to.

Some critters're reported, by scientists, to get pretty old...

https://www.livescience.com/longest-living-animals.html

Yep, pretty cool. But with certain types of people, you can't ever assume to know what they're talking about until they specify.

This doesn't support 900 year old ages for humans though.

Nothing does, except stories in the OT. And that's what this whole thing boils down to....Inquirer believes that in the past, people lived to be 900 years old because that's what the OT describes and he believes the OT.

It's no different than a Mormon who believes Joseph Smith really was visited by an angel who directed him to golden plates, or Muslims who believe Muhammad ascended into the heavens from the rock under the dome, or any number of extraordinary claims from various religions.

In each of those cases believers accept the stories as true because they see the associated holy books as trustworthy.

The question is, are such beliefs "delusional"? I think they are (although not to a level that would indicate psychosis). What I've always found fascinating is how often whether or not a belief in something extraordinary is "delusional" is apparently determined by the number of people who believe it. When a group of 10 people believe their leader is some sort of divine entity who performs miracles, regularly visits heaven, and such we have no problem concluding that they've been duped and are at least somewhat delusional. But if 10,000 people believe the same thing, we call it "religion" and think that referring to them as "delusional" is hateful and disrespectful.

We certainly are fascinating creatures.

What bugs me most about all this, is I suffer from hallucinations.

But do you think anyone believes me when I say ants're an alien species put here to monitor the planet for their eventual takeover of our entire galaxy?

Naw, I get me sent back to "the home", where the ants've planted listening devices in all the light bulbs.

[Jose Fly]

What bugs me most about all this, is I suffer from hallucinations.

That sucks...I'm really sorry that you have to deal with that.

But do you think anyone believes me when I say ants're an alien species put here to monitor the planet for their eventual takeover of our entire galaxy?

Naw, I get me sent back to "the home", where the ants've planted listening devices in all the light bulbs.

Maybe you should write it in a book, claim the visions are from a god, and weave in some local history. Apparently that's good enough for a lot of people.

[Clownboat]

Now, you cannot keep characterizing the Bible as "stories" it contains a great deal of history

Neato! Let's get specific now.

Are people living 900 years historical or stories in a book?
Are talking donkeys historical or stories in a book?
Are talking snakes/serpents historical or stories in a book?
Is a global flood historical or stories in a book?
Is living in a whale/fish for days historical or stories in a book?
Are dead bodies (for days) returning to life historical or stories in a book?

If these things are not historical and they are no more then just stories in a book, they would be delusional beliefs to hold IMO.